Stick a fork in Asia and this case...

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This Message Will Self-Destruct (pt. 1) - In re Gutierrez

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When you follow your heart, love is the answer

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A Guide to the TL/DR Odyssey of Serial

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  1. She will feel what every white collar criminal who comes from money and experiences a different version of justice than those without means. Nothing. Because your twisted prison rape fantasy will not happen. People like EH are not thrown into gen pop in San Quentin or a supermax. Accountability was the victory here. If that is not enough, you will always be disappointed.

  2. I wish I had more to contribute, but I just want to say that someone other than your obsessive follower is reading this comment, and further comments of yours in addition to your original post, out of casual interest (I haven’t even checked out serial since listening to it as a school assignment years ago yet your post felt worth reading). I’m about to re-listen to serial following the big recent updates, and I’m not sure what I believe at this point, but you make a compelling analysis/case that’s interesting to read and consider. Anyone who cares enough to obsessively follow and downvote a well constructed post and subsequent thoughtful answers has too much time on their hands in my opinion.

  3. Thanks for taking the time to read my stuff. Fortunately, Reddit changed its policy since my comment where you can see who all your followers are. The troll who was following me disappeared after that change. I always thought I was wasting an inordinate amount of time analyzing this case, but as you indicate there are others that seem to have even more time on their hands.

  4. After fondly reminiscing about misguiding allied vehicles to their destruction as a minesweeper during WW2:

  5. Reading eye chart at the DMV and getting it really wrong: “question mark, smiley face…”

  6. Employee of the month, the annual grillstravaganza, court case to prove he didn’t rent porn.

  7. Nope - all wikis are fanmade in nature! The only place to find 100% authentic Undisclosed sources and statements is their website or anything else that explicitly states “these are the thoughts/opinions of xyz.”

  8. Thanks. FWIW, it's the most complete collection of docs on this case that is publicly available (of which I am aware). Also, given the name and similarity of the logo, you can see how people might get confused. The Undisclosed people can go after them for infringing their trademark. Unless, of course, some of the Undisclosed Wiki people are also the Undisclosed podcast people, in which case, the wiki is basically their Super PAC.

  9. Knowing Rabia and her possessiveness over the narrative of this entire case, and the sour grapes over Sarah Koenig taking the glory she felt was owed to her, I would expect Undisclosed LLC (Rabias alter-ego) who owns the trademark would pursue trademark infringement if someone else unknown to her was holding themselves out as a product of Undisclosed by using that website and logo. My guess is it’s the same crew, or closely associated with Rabia, and obviously mutually acquainted with “Balookey” the artist who design both logos one of which is trademarked.

  10. Adnan did 23 years and while I am certain that he played a role in Hae's murder, 23 years for a crime committed by a 17-year-old--heinous as it was--is enough. Hae's family will feel differently, but Adnan has paid his debt as far as I'm concerned. I just wish there is something that could be done for the living nightmare her family has endured for the past 8 years.

  11. That's Urick's version, not mine. My version is that Bilal told his wife he (Bilal) was going to kill Hae. It makes no sense for that sentence to be about Adnan threatening Hae, given the context of the next two sentences. Furthermore, the first sentence is that Bilal was upset about Hae causing problems for Adnan, not that Adnan was upset.

  12. Agree 100%. Moreover, what if we take Urick at his word? That he allegedly had another witness who could testify against Adnan. A more reliable witness who, unlike Jay, could provide a single, consistent story? Where was Urick's follow up? If Bilal's ex heard it directly from Adnan, where is her subpoena? If she heard Bilal say that Adnan said it, why not make Bilal testify?

  13. SQ I swear you are my new favorite person. I feel like we are kindred spirits. I keep wondering if I wrote all of your posts when I was out of my mind after my difficult day job and just can’t remember what I did …. I am known to do the deep dive you did here on similar issues and, in that context, I don’t hesitate to tell people to go fuck themselves (vigorously) when they weigh in with eye-popping (to me) bullshit, and so I relate to the utter impatience with people like me who ask questions that have been addressed before. So with that all said…. Can you please indulge me this one (arguably two-part) question even though I’m sure it’s asked and answered?

  14. Thanks for your kind words. I asked a similar question. The prison system's processes and procedures are not static, so finding what the rules were in 1999 is pretty tough. We know that Adnan asked that question (how inmate mail is scrutinized) of his lawyers a few days after his arrest. The fact that Adnan tried to pull the scam with the Asia letters suggests that prisoner mail was not monitored closely enough to pick up on such a scheme. As to those who call bullshit based on ideology instead of evidence, I repeatedly invited them to shut me the fuck up with postmarked envelopes.

  15. Why would Asia lie for Adnan? Your whole theory assumes that she willingly would lie for what you say is barely an acquaintance

  16. Why Asia would do a lot of things is beyond me. The

  17. So I agree with some of this but I'm hung up on these two items:

  18. Thanks for reading! Agree that it's a little odd to refer to Hae as "the woman." But upon looking at the entire page of notes, the context is less murky. Granted, Urick's writing looks rushed, but the sentence with "the woman" in it begins "prior to murder." Safe to assume that Saima is referring to Hae's murder. The sentence would be nonsensical if "the woman" was someone other than Hae. For example, read it like this: Prior to Hae's murder, Bilal was upset that the Imam's wife was causing so many problems for Adnan. An odd choice of words perhaps, but Hae is a better fit for "the woman" in that sentence.

  19. I really thought your previous posts were well thought out and insightful… this one, is not.

  20. Aside from Debbie's disturbing fixation on Don immediately after the disappearance of her close friend, there is also

  21. There's apparently another witness who called Urick and said Bilal had a motive to kill Hae, and that note was referenced in the MtV... but Urick has not released or explained that one. We don't even know if the note that he did release was from October or January.

  22. Thanks. It may be the guy listed in MacGillivary's notes at item #14 on

  23. It looks like Urick jotted down Muslim Student Association (abbreviated "asn"). Most colleges with at least a handful of Muslims have an MSA. Some high schools too. Bilal's wife was probably saying something about Bilal's involvement in the U of Maryland's MSA chapter. If Woodlawn HS had an MSA, Bilal may have served as an advisor on that too, but I don't recall reading anything about that from the Muslim students at Woodlawn who were interviewed by the cops (Imran H, Saad P). Bilal was also heavily involved in student government. When he started dental school, he was the student rep for some governing body for the university.

  24. Yeah, fuck that guy. The Teranos board and list of major investors is a veritable who's who of the greatest shit-heels of our time.

  25. That's the silver lining, but at the end of the day, none of those investors are hurting. That was their "play" money that got flushed.

  26. This is epic, I had no idea about any of this.

  27. Wow, you went pretty far back. I received a notification for a comment response. I was still fleshing out the Bilal story here. The more fleshed out version is

  28. As much as I love this author’s takes (I find them both entertaining, well-written, and generally well-researched, I’m surprised that a couple of flaws haven’t yet been pointed out here:

  29. I appreciate your kind words and taking the time to read my stuff. I started posting on reddit to have my analyses challenged by others. I prefer responding to messages like yours and ignore the facile statements about this all being fan fiction, that I'm delusional, etc. Anyway, the point of listing Bilal's various criminal activities was not so much to emphasize whether he could be trusted or not as much as to demonstrate a lengthy pattern of criminal behavior. As to your specific point regarding his committing Medicare/Medicaid fraud as demonstrative of the fact that he cannot be trusted, I do not disagree. I would, however, argue that the deception required to gain the trust of parents to hand their children over to him to satisfy his depraved desires is far more dangerous than defrauding the government. Again, the point was to demonstrate that Bilal operated with no boundaries between right and wrong.

  30. Nahhh the phone records show what number was called, not what name it's saved under in his contacts. The number called was definitely Nisha's home phone number, she confirmed it herself in trial.

  31. whoa... wait.. on the day Hae is found, Adnan tells his nurse that "I spoke to her last night." ????

  32. You raise an interesting point. I blew past that. It's actually an inadvertent admission on Adnan's part. I don't think he meant to say that he spoke with Hae the night before her body was reported to being found. I think he accidentally blurted out that he spoke with Hae the night before she was murdered. Which an innocent man would not have known immediately after her body was found. The nurse would not have made the statement up. There is no way that she would have known that Adnan called Hae the night before she was last seen alive, unless he told her. Hae's body was found on February 9, 1999, but she was not identified until a couple of days later and the fact that she was dead was not known to the public until February 11 (Baltimore Sun, February 12, 1999, 8-C). Yes, the nurse was talking about Adnan's reaction upon learning that Hae was dead. This was almost a full month after she was last seen alive. At the time that Hae's body was found, there was no info on when she was killed. Nothing was reported about her likely being murdered close to January 13. It was only known that it happened some time after she left school on January 13 and when her body was found on February 9. Yet, Adnan provided his rehearsed grief by indicating that he spoke with her the night before. The night before what? He knew that he spoke with her the night before she disappeared for four fucking weeks. He was saying that he spoke with her the night before she was murdered because, unlike the cops and everyone else who didn’t kill her, Adnan knew when Hae was murdered. The nurse likely gave the cops a paraphrased version of what she recalled Adnan saying. He likely said that he spoke with her the night before, which she misinterpreted as him speaking to Hae last night. Not the strongest point given that it is based on the detective's notes taken of the interview of the nurse of something that Adnan allegedly said. Double hearsay that would never be admissible in court, but another in a long list of mini admissions by Adnan for which his advocates will undoubtedly make another in their long list of excuses for him. This will be taken less seriously than the absurd notion that Don killed Hae because she loved him too much or that Jay killed Hae because he was jealous that Adnan was close to Stephanie or, as Adnan suggested to his attorneys in 1999, that Jay killed Hae because she was going to tell Stephanie that Jay cheated on her.

  33. Chivalrous of this tool to prove that most females would have put up a better fight.

  34. This dude is off his rocker and he seems like an enemy of Adnan, Rabia and their family.

  35. Yeah, it's all about hatred. Has nothing to do with facts or evidence--but I am definitely off my rocker.

  36. In light of your conjectures re: Bilal, could it be that when Adnan/Shimam says that he "showed the letter to Gutierrez on her next visit" what he actually meant was that he gave the letters to Bilal and Bilal showed Gutierrez? Because Gutierrez represented Bilal during the Grand Jury portion of the trial, and that was much earlier (early March). Not sure if that would make ANY sense, but it would explain Adnan and his family's feeling that Gutierrez was a family attorney...

  37. Yeah, that's a bit of a stretch given that Adnan already had his own lawyers that Bilal also secured for him. Also, if I remember correctly, Bilal was not hit with his subpoena until March 16, 1999. It is unclear when Bilal retained Gutierrez to represent him, but it would have been after the cops initially reached out to interview him, which was likely about a week before the subpoena. No reason for either Adnan or Shamim to know anything about Gutierrez immediately after his arrest. If you look at the rest of the details in the Stick a Fork in Asia post, it is obvious that the entire alibi is complete bs. A better question since you bring up Bilal...why wasn't his name brought up a single fucking time during this entire story? He had not yet been arrested for sexually assaulting his dental patients when the original podcast dropped in late 2014. Also, why wait until almost the very last day of the statutory limit to raise the ineffective assistance of counsel claim against Gutierrez? They could have raised it years earlier and did not. They waited until only their version of the events could be presented. I am not the one who is siphoning donations from the public to support Adnan. I am not the one who sold books and profited from this narrative. My analysis was dumped on to a free platform under an anonymous name. I can almost guarantee that despite being an anonymous rando on reddit, I have faced and answered tougher questions than the charlatans who fooled everyone into buying into their con game.

  38. Thanks for the reply. Do you have any idea how Bilal originally found Gutierrez and decided to retain her as counsel?

  39. I'm glad you asked that question. My initial response was, "Nope, she just had a good rep." But then wanted to give you a cite for her rep. I did a quick search on Gutierrez in Maryland newspapers between 1990 and 1999. She represented some real messed up people in high profile cases, including a female teacher who hooked up with her adolescent male student, catholic priests molesting young boys and children being abused by people who run day care centers. THAT is likely what put her on Bilal's radar. Being a religious teacher who molested boys entrusted to him and his mom running a day care (Bilal's mom, like Adnan's mom, ran a day care service). Anyway, there is also a front page profile of her in the Baltimore Sun from May 15, 1994. That was actually what I was trying to find having recalled reading it before. The cases of her defending Bilal types were captured by my search and added a new dimension to Bilal wanting her to represent him.

  40. Can you share your updated thoughts and opinions to what has occurred so far in the case? I'm fine with a DM to be honest. Out of all the threads I've read, your series has elucidated the case for me.

  41. The prosecution--more specifically--the Baltimore State's Attorney, Marilyn Mosby, is under federal indictment. Her trial was scheduled to begin five days after her office filed the MtV. Her trial date was subsequently suspended. She is setting an extremely dumb and dangerous precedent wherein every murderer who is doing time in her jurisdiction who was convicted based on eye witness testimony can argue that their conviction should be vacated on the same basis--a lack of DNA evidence. This was not a rape case where DNA evidence would unequivocally prove guilt or innocence. DNA evidence was not relied upon by the prosecution when Adnan was convicted almost 23 years ago. A case like this should not turn on the presence or absence of DNA. As Adnan's own attorney, Justin Brown, had stated, the least surprising outcome would have been to find Adnan's DNA in Hae's car from all the times he was driving around in it (and not murdering her).

  42. Bravo! Yours is the only account that wraps up so many unanswered questions from Serial. I'm so disappointed in SK for not having a full episode on Bilal.

  43. Thanks for your kind words and taking the time to read the posts. There are at least three reasons why SK ostensibly ignored Bilal:

  44. Sorry if this info is out there, but I can't seem to find any answers.

  45. No worries. I left you a DM. I don't like putting summaries of my long-form analysis out there because in the past, users have latched on to summaries which lack all the context, document cites and evidence in the long form posts, to pick apart/question the analysis. That results in me responding with even longer, more disjointed versions of my long-form posts.

  46. Spoken during one of those transition scenes that perfectly captures Hank:

  47. Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'.

  48. You are forgetting that Hank was born in the ladies rest room at Yankee Stadium. After that, he might as well be the headliner for Bug Gribble's rodeo on Fire Island.

  49. Nah, I'd say he's being consistently quiet. Like he was after the MtV dropped and he waited for everyone to finish jerking off to the words defecated by Mosby. It seems like he prefers to wait until there is more information to provide context to what is being presented by the prosecutor who is under federal indictment. After all,

  50. I’m not sure if I missed this, but what are you saying happened to Hae’s car after Adnan asked Jay for help moving it from the Best Buy parking lot? Not looking to argue, just trying to clarify.

  51. No worries. I probably should have deleted this one. It was a speculative post as indicated in the title before things were clarified. Hae’s car was never at the best buy. See the post linked at the beginning of this one for detail. Thanks for reading.

  52. If the cops did, indeed, coerce Jay into providing false testimony, that certainly changes the legal basis for Adnan's conviction.

  53. I appreciate your taking the time to read this, but I'm sorry that you wasted your time with it. It was part of the process to reaching a

  54. I’m sorry but I can’t read all of this because it is mainly all SPECULATION. A more likely scenario in my mind is that Hae knew Bilal was an informant (probably through Adnan) and threatened to expose him (leaving him vulnerable to retaliation from everyone he informed on) so he killed her. He used Jay to assist him by threatening to turn him in as a drug dealer. This is the only scenario with motivations that make sense to me. Adnan did not have a real motivation to kill someone whom he loved but had broken up with him - THAT makes no logical sense and he especially had no motivation to include Jay in this crime he supposedly committed!

  55. Can’t tell if you’re being funny. The informant stuff that I suggest is pretty speculative too. It wasn’t critical to the analysis except to the link it to Bilal’s penchant for planning everything like a ridiculous sting operation. Lots of people gave me shit for that when I originally posted a few years ago. Of Bilal’s roles (child predator, spiritual abuser, rapist, fraudster, etc.), it is possible that he was an informant based on my analysis, but it’s not 100%. If you read the subsequent posts (if you really want to waste your time), the logic issues, Jay’s role and everything else is explained. Thanks for taking the time to read.

  56. I don't know what you're referring to, but I've just apparently been misreading you're username

  57. Yeah that “aa”/“o” distinction can get tricky. Might result from washing down “quoludes” with "ordvark" piss. Yeah, I had to change it cuz I thought lager had two "a"s. Be well!

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