DBZ and Super rely on the heroes being self-centered and nearly amoral to have any stakes

  1. If someone like Krillin had his way, Vegeta would have died, but Goku doesn't really register all those deaths the same way or at least he brushed it off, which is a character trait he explicitly has of being kind of aloof at times when it comes to such matters. Vegeta is strong, so he lives to fight Goku again. The other Z-fighters are either too weak to take action or realized there's some solid use in Vegeta being around, especially more recently that he tends to be closer to Goku as well as much more reliable.

  2. You are wrong about the Namek village that Vegeta killed. They did NOT come back. Only the Nameks killed by Frieza or his men came back.

  3. Noticing that Dragon Ball characters are callous, self indulgent at the cost of others, and have unconventional and fickle senses of morality is like noticing Batman is rich, wears black, fights crime, and broods. The series never really tries to make you think otherwise. In Vegeta's case he's gone from mustache twirling evil actions to DBZ main character callous indifference with occasional good intentions actions.

  4. You’re not being honest about why Piccolo said what he said. Vegeta was one of the strongest fighters on their side why would Piccolo want him to die. He straight up tells Vegeta he’s a piece of shit that’s going to hell when he fights Majiin Buu.

  5. I agree this is the case for Super. It's a really poorly handled series and has even more of that protagonist-centered morality for the reasons you gave. Frankly, it's part of the reason I can never really find love for it the way I do for classic DB. Beerus and co. suck and Zeno is even worse. The fact that Goku loves them so much because uhhh Goku's pure and childish is bizarre.

  6. Super more than any other part of Dragon Ball series seems to detach itself the most from even what grounded ‘reality’ the other series had. Frankly its something I was highly disappointed in - for all the faults or shortcomings that the original DB, Z or even GT had, it felt like there was some weight and depth to what was happening and some of the consequences genuinely stuck it out for the duration of the arcs they occurred in or lead directly to events in later arcs.

  7. Since when has Beerus properly done his job as destroyer? A destroyer is supposed to wipe out things that threaten the balance of the galaxy, an example being he should have wiped out Buu, Frieza, or the saiyans. He didn’t do this. Not only did he not do this, he proceeded to go to worlds that didn’t need destruction and killed them over wether or not he enjoys their food.

  8. Beerus is insanely petty pretty much every time we see him, he was threatening to destroy earth over pudding. Whis even scolded him in front of Zeno for being a lazy fuck who only eats. The only time I remember him doing his fucking job right was when he killed zamasu.

  9. You're acting like the narrative rewards Vegeta for doing bad shit when it does the exact opposite. Literally every time Vegeta acts amoral he gets called out on his shit and gets his ass kicked. As for the god characters their gods they're supposed to act amoral. It's Beerus's job to destroy planets ((even though he's a really shitty God of destruction)) and Zeno is literally a child with a god like power. Zeno isn't even presented as a hero.

  10. Thats straight up one of the best things about Dragon Ball. Give me the Chad Greek style heroes any day.

  11. ...The series never asks you to be oblivious to Vegeta's crimes, and I'm not sure why you think it does. It's a major issue throughout DBZ that Vegeta is absolutely awful and only alive because Goku wants him to be. What makes the moment on New Namek so good is that it's the first time Vegeta's ever actually looked back on his past with real regret, and a continuation of the personality change he's been slowly having the whole series. We're not supposed to forget that Vegeta is a mass-murderer- we're supposed to watch him, little by little, change for the better... And all of that would be meaningless if we DIDN'T remember that he's killed an undisclosed number of populations.

  12. Eh I’d throw adult Krillin (possibly post Kami fusion Piccolo) in also. Krillin is a good guy and does genuinely try to make good decisions and is clearly affected by the atrocities he witnesses. I know people immediately say ‘but he let Android 18 go’, and there is a degree of fair criticism there. But then at the same time I think its fair for a character like Krillin to hesitate here, and I’m frankly not sure a character like Gohan would have had the heart to execute her either. By all accounts to that point its not like she’d done anything near horrific, especially compared with a character like Vegeta or especially Cell himself (who ruthlessly devoured whole cities for power).

  13. I mean you’re not wrong really. Toriyama wanted Goku in particular to be selfish in that regard and the other heroes typically indulge him because he’s the main hero and has saved the world each time. We also see some of the prouder fighters refuse to make selfless decisions in favour of testing their own strength (e.g. in anticipation of the androids) despite the risks and casualties, with things often working out for the better in the long run but despite their immediate intentions.

  14. I mean, yeah? That's kind of the point. They're not superheroes, they're just martial artists. They sideways glance at Gohan and Krillin for going out of their way to save people. They think of space cops as stuffy and maybe a fun hobby to jump into to find a good opponent. But they don't put too much thought into the morality of every person they run into. Almost every character was either a villain or just morally questionable before befriending Goku. They protect the Earth because, I mean, who wouldn't? They live there.

  15. The most egregious example to me was the narrative acting like Bergamo was the bad guy for rightly pointing out that Goku was playing with fire by indulging the Tournament of Power stuff. They have to bend over backwards and say "no no no, Zeno was going to do it anyway, so really, Goku saved everyone". It doesn't even make sense as an excuse because Goku didn't know that at the time.

  16. Super (anime) appears to try too hard to appeal to comtemporary tastes. The goofyness and type of comedy it goes for with characters (typically regressing), the pacing, what (IMO) is (now more than ever) an attempt to use mindless action lacking impact or weight for the sake of keeping up the visuals. Lack of consequences and at times poor direction.

  17. And if morals are gonna start applying to gods, then we need to bring our big guy on trial for a whole lot of things, like that time he killed a bunch of Egyptian babies or wiped two cities off the map.

  18. Literally none of the gods are heroes they’re neutral for the most part lmao. Why am I being downvoted did literally none of you guys watch the show, they are nuetral for the most part or else there’s nothing stopping beerus or whis from beating antags for goku or vegeta lmao.

  19. Majority of the people commenting didn't read your post clearly or at all. Makes sense seeing as how dbz fans are so dim they make theories over the simplest and dumbest shit that neither toyotaro or toriyama tries to sugarcoat. The anime trying to make us feel bad for vegeta in both his deaths is hilarious due to it being shallow because of his prior actions. I find it weird that dbz is called the best when it does the bare minimum in terms of storytelling, character handling, and overall presentation compared to anime/manga that would come after it, but I guess characters who barely do anything interesting outside of beating eachother to death is peak fiction. Neither both it's sequals (one being non-canon) are any better either.

  20. The thing with Vegeta to where his redemption is earned is no one likes him for most the series not try to get him to change or are all broken up over him. Even Goku just wants to fight him and isn't buddy buddy with him until halfway through the original Z. Vegeta also always is humiliated and broken for his actions. It takes two deaths one being a sacrifice to change for the better. Vegeta also faces the same punishment Frieza had in death.

  21. I mean, is dragon ball even serious enough of a story that things like this "matter" so to speak? I can't claim to be the most familiar with it, but its overall level of silliness to me always seemed high enough that details like this were just kind of "whatever." The logic it used seems less serious than the average movie for actual kids.

  22. Seem like just some idea you get from... neither how the story is told, or the audiences then dissagree with it. lot of infor you stated that happened in the story is clearly wrong too

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