[Book Spoilers] House of the Dragon - 1x06 "The Princess and the Queen" - Post Episode Discussion

  1. Only thoughts on the episode- I watched GoT for Cersei, I will watch this for Alicent, neither women I consider villains, but queens of put-downs. (although Alicent REALLY needs to pull back on the green clothes...she made her point already by stealing attention from the bride while not even wearing white lol). I hate the growing bias for Rhaenrya just because she embodies more 21st century values when it comes to sexual liberation and gender roles, and the growing hatred for Alicent- it feels like Emily Careys beautiful work is being wasted. We're supposed to see them as roughly similar in morality. But Alicent is trying to protect her family, which she was raised to do, plus she previously cared, comforted, and defended Rhaenrya. Rhaenyra was raised to serve the realm, but so far she has been the architect of her own sufferings, repaid Alicent with lies, and so far has yet to do a single thing that didn't benefit her. She's a shit person. Also, Laena- you deserved waaay more time. You were fascinating and your finale would've killed me if I'd just known you a bit more. Vhagar's scene creamed the scene in the book, which I loved!

  2. Now one of you sage readers please enlighten me. Rhaenyra had been playing the game well, she couldn’t even fuck her legal husband once to get a kid? Why does she keep having these bastards?! She knows!!!

  3. Some harsh truths, Alicent is justified, Criston isn’t evil, Rhaenyra is woefully incompetent…let the downvotes flow

  4. i really do not hate alicent (her taking part in harwin's death is where i can say that yeah she's bad but she was shocked too how the other strong acted) i don't get it how show only people are taking sides this early

  5. With how broken down Viserys is and seems to just wants to see everyone to get along before he dies I don't even want him to be mad that Rhaenyra and Daemon marry but be upset that they did it in secret and felt like they couldn't tell him

  6. With the focus on the rats and secret passages I wonder if they’re going to end this season with Blood and Cheese. I feel like that could end up being like the last episode of the season and holy fuck what a closer that’d be. Like the kill happens off screen while we’re focused on a shot of Alicent’s face and it keeps zooming in on her while we hear Halaena scream off screen. Alicent has a look Cat did when she died. That’s where it ends. Would be crazy

  7. What I’m not understanding is why she could be killed by fire. I thought dragonriders are immune to fire. That’s the impression I got from GOT.🤔

  8. Anyone else notice “but you’ll have to lose an eye” from Helena while Aemond was talking to his mom about his brother’s pig joke?

  9. Given that grrm is a producer have we established that we're getting the true tellings vs the thoughts of Mushroom et al? Ie- is this confirmation of Canon that Larys was behind harrenhall, rhaneyra and laenor had an understanding, etc?

  10. GRRM said in an interview that what's on screen is "tv canon" or "show canon". Not necessarily book canon, because you have to change things for it to work on TV.

  11. One thing puzzles me. Whether Deamon decided to go along with the C-section or not as it is quite ambiguous, I don't think they showed his decision, but I might be wrong.

  12. Like with the book, I’m going to go on rooting for Team Black until they eventually let me down. At that point I’ll just be waiting for a very specific, very lupine hour.

  13. Does anyone know if this whole series will take place in the books “Fire and Blood” or will they be adapting other books as well?

  14. So fire and blood is a small section of the history of Westeros that has a chapter devoted to each king. I would bet there is another coming where there is another war during the blackfyre rebellion

  15. WTF does Viserys have?? Do you guys think he got some sort of disease from the swords of the iron throne? Perhaps enhanced by a long lineage of inbreeding (European high courts often suffered from hemophilia and countless kings died because of it - any small cut could mean no tissue regeneration and limb loss)

  16. Don't know how he got it but in behind the episodes Paddy considine tell he got leprosy thats why hair falling and face getting weird

  17. Id imagine it's just the wounds getting infected and then he gets new ones when he's on the throne so its a cycle

  18. I know in the book they make alot of references to the Iron Throne rejecting certain kings, but I imagine it is just all the inbreeding catching up on him.

  19. How much of the first book have they actually adapted? Also, how much of the previous targarean history is in the books?

  20. Fire and Blood covers about 140 years of history. The show has covered about 25 years of that including the prolouge at the start of episode 1 if I’m not mistaken pal

  21. About half a chapter lol. Fire and Blood itself goes from the Targaryens arriving on Dragonstone up through what happens after the Dance, so a lot more history.

  22. How is this a book spoilers thread when a third of the people here obviously haven't read a book -- and can barely remember things that happened 1-2 episodes ago?

  23. I agree, there are people still asking for Targaryen's fire immunity or others that obviously don't know what's going to happen during the Dance. I mean, if they want to spoilt themselves, the wiki is faster to read.

  24. I have issues with the pacing of this season. Didn't like that Laena and Harwyn were killed immidiately after we barely get to know them. Keep them around for 1 or 2 more episodes before killing them, and their deaths would have more impact on us viewers.

  25. I agree, I think we could have had 2 seasons in this content, and just created engaging narrative drama for each season. Like I would have loved an entire season of Allicent and Rhanyeera being friends, and then having the dramatic close of season be Allicent's initial betrayals (perhaps with some A-plot that would spice things up a bit).

  26. Yep I’m enjoying the show thus far but the pacing isn’t great. While I understand it’s based off source material that spans a century plus, the fast pace of character introductions and deaths I think just doesn’t work well.

  27. Like yes, it can be a bit weird and I wanted more time with them too, but the writers have to make choices. HBO isnt gonna do anything more than like 5 seasons for this, and maybe not even that. There is too much of the dance to get to in the limited time and too many other spin offs they want rather than just this story. Its weird right now, but I would rather them speed through this part and flesh out the battles and tension later than give me a bunch of harwin strong and then in season five have to leave out big things because they are time constrained. This is one of those things that i think will truly be the right decision once we can look back on the series as a whole

  28. I thought they would renew a season 2 in which the younger actors come back to show what happened in the 10 years between rhaynera-laenor's wedding and birth of jeoffery.

  29. Same. Easily the worst episode for me. Laena committing suicide via dragon fire immolation was also bizarre, no goodbyes, no consideration of her living children and her unborn child, just dying on her own terms. And Harwin not getting enough screen time, with a 10 year time jump, only to be shown being burn to a crisp later. Laena and Harwin should have been fleshed out more before dying.

  30. The fact is that they should not impact the watcher, they're like the crabfeeder, just some names on a page. Obviously for a non book reader this would seem stupid and I get why, but focusing too much on useless characters would have been a waste of time for the screenwriters.

  31. Are we supposed to get the idea that Viserys' mind is deteriorating? He seems different and always has that weird smile on his face.

  32. Upon further reflection, I did not love this episode. The new Allicent actress is too comedic. Some of her lines were pretty bad like "but he would be partial to me". And Rhaenyra leaking milk through her shirt during a crucial moment and then acting embarrassed was cliche like personally I feel like I've seen that in every pregnancy story line in every sitcom ever.

  33. Weird theory: Anyone else think Cole could actually be Jacaerys papa?? Laenor and Rhaenyra married in 114 and she gave birth to Jacaerys that same year too... moon tea is not always effective and her and Cole might’ve went another round or two🤷🏼‍♀️

  34. I stick to Ser Harwin since jace being Cole's wouldn't add much to the story since there is no way someone could actually discover that and I don't see why changing it. They can't evene prove those are Strongs actually. It's one of those things that might or might not be, no proof for either.

  35. I know that i have seen pictures of young Rhaenyra wearing her black dress but I don't remember seeing her wear it in the show. What episode/ event did she wear it?

  36. IIRC she wears it at her mothers funeral, the start of episode 1 when she arrives at the dragon pit, and the start of episode 3 when Alicent approaches her (time jump after dad marries bestie), not sure about other occasions

  37. Can someone tell me without spoiling anything else, is there a main character in HotD that is just a good person (like Jon Snow) or is everyone varying degrees of asshole?

  38. Not major ones but I can think of 1 who will probably get a bigger role who isn't. And Daemon - outside of one horrific thing - is more sympathetic in the books.

  39. So let me get this straight. Harwin Strong lays a hand on a Prince and gets into a fight with Criston Cole. Because of that altercation, he is dismissed from his position as commander of the city watch. But Criston literally beats a man to death unprovoked at a wedding and they just let him keep his job?

  40. Ehh, in the books, Criston kills Joffrey in a melee, which isn't particularly unheard of, so it's not that surprising that he wasn't dismissed. I think they only changed it to happen kill at the wedding for practical reasons.

  41. I like how Helaena casually drops the line “He must close one eye first”. Wonderful bit of foreshadowing. Screenwriters’ wink-wink at book fans!

  42. Is it just me or did Alicent go from sweet and likable to a bitter, jealous fucking cunt? No? Cool. Does she not understand that because she’s butt hurt her bestie didn’t share a secret—one that Rhea would have been judged for—that she is now jogging blindly down the exact path she was screaming at her eldest about? Like, seriously honey, if you had just gotten over yourself and remained content to follow in Rhea’s damn shadow, your kids would not be in the danger you yourself has now thrust them into? And Cole. He’s such a fucking self-righteous pos. If he isn’t textbook bitch boy who got his feelings hurt by a hot chick and now feels the need to ruin her life. Spoiled cunt, my ass.

  43. Could have been judged for? If Rhaenyra cared about people judging her she would have stopped her thing with Harwin after Jacaerys, or hell even after Lucerys. But she’s shameless and had bastards 3 times and expects everyone to fall in order. That’s a major insult to anyone with eyes, especially to Alicent who is mother to true born children

  44. Agreed on so much you said - Cole is the spoiled cunt himself. His feelings supersede everything else and he pretends to have honor.

  45. I’m not a fan of Alicent. That said, IMO, this is an oversimplification of what’s driving her. Her dad got into her head and manipulated her into this situation from the beginning (when she was a teenage girl) and then again right before he left (and she became a mom). He put fear into her head by telling her she and her children are in danger and their lives depend on her. THATS what she’s operating from. She feels alone and is scared. Her husband, the king is about to die any day and then what? What happens to her and her kids? Especially in a time and place where not everyone wants a queen. What options does she have? She’s in an impossible situation and even though I don’t like her, I’m not surprised by her behavior.

  46. It’s brought it home for me, that if Laena hadn’t have died, there would have been a very quick Black victory in the Dance, even if she opted to phone it in.

  47. Alicent is the Westerosi Karen. I could imagine her doing the equivalence of “I would like to speak to the manager”

  48. Am I the only one that thinks what Larys did really seemed out of left field? I would’ve liked a scene where, oh I don’t know, Larys speaks with his father and suggests he send Harwin to the wall under the guise that it’s his only way to survive the rumors. Obviously this would be rejected and they get burned.

  49. He'll be more fleshed out, for sure. But you can see where the resentment comes. A fully honorable father, a brother who is considered the strongest and there he is: a cripple.

  50. I see where you're coming from for sure. However, I think there was a huge overarching theme of "the consequences of envy" in this episode. Larys surely felt like the lesser son. He used Ali to justify his means.

  51. Alecent is a father fucking snake and guess what her kids don't look anything like her either... As long as we're making accusations.

  52. Just finished fire & blood less than an hour ago. Jfc this is gonna be an unbelievably, bleakly depressing show… particularly interested in how they’ll handle Maelor/blood&cheese/joffrey (as far as how much they show on screen, just because those are all ultra-brutal events).

  53. This is honestly one of my concerns for the show, like it’s good and interesting and fun but yeah shit just ends nonstop horribly for everyone.

  54. Is it worthy to read fire & blood book because i want to read it, but I read and heard that the writing is boring and it is like a historical narrative book with not dialogues.

  55. Cool detail- when the king said Joffrey had Laenors nose. I recall in the book all of Rhynaeras (sp) sons had pug noses when Laenor clearly doesn't.

  56. Is anyone going to ask why Daemon and Laenas kids are darker than Laena rather than lighter like an actual mixed child would be?

  57. I mean, while genetics are complicated and it can happen in real life (kids appearing darker than their parents despite being mixed), it could be to show contrast between their kids and Rhaenyra's kids - to further imply that Laenor can't be the prince's biological father.

  58. I mean they’ve shown he’s potentially impotent. Maybe they aren’t his. Explains his more offhandedly behavior with the kids, especially Rhaena. Wouldn’t be a surprise if they are someone else within the velaryon house. He then only really invests himself in the dragonrider.

  59. That’s not how genetics work, whenever parents of different skin tone have kids (multiple) they tend to be different shades of lightness.

  60. Go look up Biffs stand up song “stop asking me the question. Absorb its message and get back to us. “It’s a MOVIE”

  61. Its better to just read the Fire&Blood wiki/characters wiki pages to have an idea of what happens to them. I did so and I'm very content with what I've read. There is enough ambiguity still to make it worth watching the show as while the macro plot points will remain the same, the micro points will differ for suspense purposes.

  62. I won't spoil it for you, but they are mostly keeping with the book. The changes made are fairly mild and generally done for practical reasons. Other changes seem to add some depth to the characters, like making Rhaenyra and Alicent besties when they went friends in the book.

  63. DO NOT SPOIL YOURSELF!!!!! Seriously, I would give anything to wipe my memory from the book and experience all the insane moments this series will provide.

  64. Too many things happen in the book to answer that question. A Wiki of Ice and Fire is a good resource for more specific details. The show follows the spirit of the book pretty well if not always the letter.

  65. Other point I don't get is the suicide by dragon, if she was willing to die, why not go for the C section ? Birth by blade. What am I missing?

  66. Instant death by full-body incineration (dragonfire is hotter than normal fire and only gets hotter with age, with Vhagar being the oldest living dragon; her breath could melt stone a hundred years before this) versus a slow, painful and undignified death by C-section and no guarantee the child would live.

  67. as a newcomer to the show, what I dont get is why Vicerys is alive? he being alive hurts both Alicent and Rhaenyra. if Vicerys dies, either Alicent becomes "temp" queen while her son is of age or Rhaenyra becomes heir and kicks Alicent out of the Kingdom. why are they keeping him alive?

  68. Nope - But that's because I know what is to come in the future events having read the wiki pages. That was enough to justify me putting up with the change of actors.

  69. Seems like Rhaenyra is a completely different person…in addition to being a literal completely different person.

  70. In some ways, it’s like an episode one again. I liked it, but it’s not the hot sexy shit show that’s been the last few episodes. I’m holding out though. I liked the older actresses a lot so far.

  71. Not at all. This should be the only major time jump with a lot happening in between. It's going to slow down soon as the main conflict starts to ramp up.

  72. Not disinterested but definitely less interested. It was too jarring and it's hard to make the connection that these are the same characters we've been watching.

  73. I have a noob question. if a Targaryen (sic) cannot be killed by fire (as Danearys always insisted), why the unborn baby was burnt inside the mom by the Dragon?

  74. George RR Martin has said they aren't immune, not even Dany. They have more resistance to heat than usual but aren't 100% immune.

  75. There is nothing in the books about being immune from fire. Daenerys was the only one that had that quality. Vicerys (her brother) was killed with molten metal, Jon Snow burned his hand on a lamp, etc.

  76. Targaryen's are not immune to fire. According to GRRM, Daenerys was immune to fire only that one time when she got her dragons. They are mildly resistant to heat at baseline (they can take hot baths) but can get toasted easily by dragons.

  77. Lyonel assigned both his kids jobs according to their skills, Harwin joined the city watch (then became commander), and Larys became the King's confessor (basically the torturer) iirc

  78. I read the book as Lyonel positioning his sons of the differents blocks on purpose, and that they as a family had an understanding and an ongoing cooperation. Playing both sides of the field essentially.

  79. Really curious to hear what people have to say about this time jump episode from folks who have read the books. What did you like and didn’t like? Did it feel rushed? What was missing?

  80. I literally hated that we’re supposed to give a damn about Laena and Harwin when we don’t know them at all. This episode is the worst for feeling like a history book

  81. So they age literally everyone else with makeup and shit but they recast Rhaenyra and Alicent?? Can't say I enjoyed it too much.

  82. I did not read the book but so far my biggest problems were magnified by this episode. This show seriously needs to slow way down. The time jumps wouldn’t be a big deal but aside from the fact that I know (based on standard storytelling tropes) who’s important and who’s fodder, I feel little to no investment in any of these characters.

  83. Honestly not a ton happens in between to be honest, it’s summed up in only a page or two. Only thing really left out is a lot of travel - Rhaenyra and Laena were apparently good friends but I can see why that wasn’t super relevant.

  84. I kinda wish we got the scene of Criston Cole beating Harwin to a pulp in a tournament just because the fans would absolutely hate it. Other than that it all seems pretty good. It seems rushed but there’s a lot to get through, the books rush this section just as much.

  85. So for people asking why raenyra children have brown hair, couldnt be that the blood of the first men is stronger than the blood of the targaryens and there for, they have brown hair and not silver?

  86. Rhaenyra is 75% (3/4) Targaryen. Harwin is not Targaryen at all. That makes their kids 37.5% (3/8) Targaryen. My guess is that the logic in this world is that Targaryen traits show up more often when the child is at least half.

  87. For the people who have read the book (I actually haven't) - is there something close to a good side vs bad side or no? Like....can you tell that you're supposed to be rooting for the greens or the blacks, or are they both basically bad? I know each side is flawed but I think it might be hard to stay interested if I find both sides to be total assholes. With GOT the Starks were clearly portrayed as the ones you should root for. Here I'm not sure sure.

  88. Not really - it’s a much less dramatic and admittedly somewhat neutral account. You certainly recognize good and bad people on both sides though.

  89. Honest take: it was a damned civil war, over whether or not a woman would inherit. No side was coming out of that looking good, and GRRM seems to have made it very much a Your Mileage May Vary situation. Aegon and Rhaenyra are both capable of being cruel -- I mean, monarchs.

  90. I’m losing interest in this show quickly which is disappointing after a strong start with the pilot. The character motivations barely make sense like we haven’t even spent 10 minutes with Larys but he wants to kill his own brother and father why?? Why is Ser Criston so cruel all of a sudden when initially he was empathetic to Rhaenyra?

  91. From someone who hasn’t read the book Larys motivation makes perfect sense to me. He’s the second son so he’s no heir & he walks with cane while also being frail. His brother on the other hand is known as one of the strongest warriors around & was the captain of the city guard who was also having children with the queen. He’s the typical power hungry jealous brother, his story follows the same family vs family dynamic of most of the other characters in the story.

  92. I feel like decisions made by characters in this show make no sense. It's like everyone is stupid, and instead of decisions making sense based on who the character making the choice is, it feels like characters are making decisions to suit the plot the writers wanted to happen.

  93. Did anyone catch Halaena saying “He’ll have to close an eye” when Alicent was talking to Aemond about his dragon? I love that foreshadowing

  94. Yeah I was confused bc the hint made sense but I didn’t understand where it came from, like why was she saying that? Was she talking about the centipede?

  95. This episode makes things seem so forced, how long did this prequel/sequel of GOT take?! The actor changes were so annoying, felt like I was just dropped in the middle of a movie I saw the first 5 minutes of, had to relearn what went on, who’s who, and so forth, definitely my least favorite episode thus far.

  96. The situation at Harrenhal's end result is accurate to the books, although in the story the perpetrator is unknown and several candidates are put forward speculatively.

  97. I'm glad they were able to explain how Criston is still in the kingsguard and still with his head attached to his neck after murdering a guest at a royal wedding...

  98. Probably had to do some community service at the Queen's behest. Actually, that would have been a decent thing to reference like her making him stand vigil for 7 days and 7 nights or something holy like that as 'punishment' for committing murder that they might spin as self defense.

  99. Was I the only one not totally sold on the older Rhaenyra? I don’t know, the younger one looked so fearless and badass. I think they did a mistake on choosing such a great actress for the younger role.

  100. I think she was meant to display the exhaustion and burdens of living at court with Allicent and her rumor squad. So she's beaten down.

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