Qualified immunity has got to go

  1. Literally having this discussion right now on another post, I made the reference of me messing up on my job right now that I'd be fired by Wednesday. My fellow redditor keeps bringing up the fact that the person who got shot had a warrant out. My brain started to hurt trying to explain to him or her the cop grabbed her gun instead of tazer an needs to be held accountable.

  2. I always go to the same damn argument when this stuff happens. COPS NEED TO BE LICENSED AND TRAINED BETTER! It's so frustrating seeing the same old stuff happen again and again. This entire thing could of been prevented with proper training and psychological evaluation though every step. Police officers should be at minimum trained for 2-4 years and evey single death should be investigated by a third party that has the ability to remove or give licensing. Im so damn frustrated about hearing the same old story when there is clear solutions to the problem.

  3. Maybe don’t give guns to people who can’t differentiate between a gun and a taser?? Just a thought... I would truly feel less scared if the people who are protecting and serving knew if they were going to be using a gun (or not) on someone.

  4. I’m an electrician and if something I work on catches fire, EVEN IF NOBODY GETS HURT AND THE FIRE IS PUT OUT PROMPTLY, I lose my license forever and possibly go to prison. Fuck those police

  5. Look it up. The warrant was because the court messed up and sent the zoom meeting or whatever to the wrong email address. THEY fucked up and then this guy was killed. When these things happen or when you know they’re happening and not getting coverage or anything of the sort is going on and I think about it, there is just this internal rage that’s like boiling water growing closer and closer to flipping the top of the pot off the fucking stove and everything boiling over. Boiling, seething, molten anger.

  6. In their mind, black and brown people deserve it, period. Warrant? Drugs? Tickets? Doesn't matter. It's ok to play judge/jury/ executioner with our lives.

  7. The person you're arguing with is the same type of person arguing they shouldn't be in jail after storming the capital. These people don't understand what it's like to be on the other side of the law they assume they're above it and better and only when they're faced with it do they cry out "this is unfair"

  8. I feel like so many instances of abuse of power would be solved by police having to carry liability insurance. If there is one institution you don't fuck with in the US besides the police unions, its the insurance companies.

  9. Even when we see that the person is no threat, they come with an excuse. With George Floyd, it's drugs. They aren't arguing in good faith.

  10. Cops thta aren't trained well usually go for the gun because thats something they can use. They arent trained well enough to defend themselves without a gun so these things keep happening. Also too many cops in us. More cops= more bad cops hidden in those numbers

  11. Everyone is not built to process and can emotionally cope with bad things. So they rationalize to cope. Even if she saw him committing murder. Under the law, he was still to be deemed innocent until proven guilty. She has no authority to kill him unless she felt her life or someone else’s life was in danger. Period. There is no loop hole here. She had no justification to kill him this is why they are using their other go to. In lieu of I feared for my life it’s I mistook my taser for my gun.

  12. They tossed the BART cop under the bus about a decade ago, and he at least had the issue of both the gun and taser on the same side.

  13. Also, the warrant was only for not appearing in court because the mail with the court date was sent to the wrong address. Such BS

  14. I can see a cop making a mistake. I can see the cop getting into a situation where he was over his head. Sure, sure all interesting points. The victim is fucking dead. What second chance does he get?

  15. Since when were cops executions to people with warrants and a warrant probaly just means I got a unpaid fine. Like not every warrant is equal.

  16. Oh so when that person ends up with a warrant for failure to appear** because of a silly court mistake it's perfectly fine for a cop to shoot them "because they had a warrant out"?

  17. That's like hitting your little sibling over a game of nintendo, and instead of grounding you and selling all your toys and sending you to military school while they burn all their pictures of you and tell your friends you died, your parents sexually abuse you in the basement, reaping millions of dollars from the publicity over their 'missing' kid, as you, between brutal mutilations, infected wounds, and horrifying creative new frontiers of sexual abuse, lose all sense of time for twenty years until dad has a stroke and the paramedics find you, catatonic and near feral, having forgotten even how to spea-

  18. It's hard to think of a job where you fuck up so bad somebody died and there are no repercussions. Except of course for the police.

  19. Police aren't judge, jury, and executioner. Having a warrant out for your arrest shouldn't change anything. He ran, and cops should perdue them but shouldn't be shooting a gun or tazer at their back.

  20. For someone who isn't a police officer, shooting accidentally would still be man slaughter - so it should be at least that.

  21. From what I read, this has happened several times before and the officers received convictions of involuntary manslaughter and served a couple years in prison.

  22. It’s the reason they are trying to spin that the cop thought they fired off a taser, otherwise it would fall into a certain degree of murder.

  23. Yes it should be manslaughter. OPs example is not totally analogous because one requires quick thinking and the other is slow and deliberate

  24. I actually don't think they would. They would lose their medical license and face some kind of charges- maybe manslaughter- for sure but murder almost never holds up in the medical setting.

  25. Well, murder requires intent. If you can prove the physician maliciously ended the person’s life, sure. Murder. Otherwise, negligent homicide or manslaughter (depends on the state).

  26. It takes a lot to end a bad doctors career. Especially when they have admitting privileges at multiple hospitals. The initial impulse is to defend physicians. By the time the dots are connected they can do a lot of harm.

  27. You’re right. It is really unusual to hold even the most incompetent surgeon criminally responsible, and it’s very unusual. Even getting a surgeon fired or stripped of their license is hard. The Dr. Death podcast has a jarring example of this in its first season.

  28. They probably wouldn’t lose their medical license or face any charges. If every medical error causing death resulted in medical license revocation there would be no doctors.

  29. People seem to forget that Boeing executives killed hundreds of people through malpractice and no one is asking to end whatever kind of qualified immunity they have.

  30. At my job, if the people underneath me (in which I’m in charge of training and oversight) made a mistake as large as this, not only would I be punished but I could also be liable. This failure needs to go to the top

  31. at a cops job the only people on the hook are tax payers, and rarely the cop who took the egregious actions that forced tax payers to pay millions

  32. Yup, this. I'm fairly sure this is only partially her fault, she obviously lacked training and practice. The entire scenario when the kid dove back into his car should have happened differently, but someone panicked and now a dude is dead. The idea that a tazer is even remotely misidentifiable with a firearm is broken. The idea that he was so dangerous that they couldn't pick him up at home 20 minutes later, that's broken. The entire culture of police right now is broken as shit.

  33. The lack of mens rea is why it’s manslaughter which elicits a different punishment. If they meant to kill the suspect than it’s definitely murder.

  34. Eh, it's only valid with extreme hyperbole. Surgeons make mistakes and patients die and they aren't charged with a crime.

  35. No it’s not. Doctors kill patients through negligence all the time and are not criminally charged. Also, stupidity is a defense. This tweet is 0/3 on factual assertions (doctors would get criminally charged, the charge would be murder, stupidity is not a defense) and got upvoted 70k times. My head feels like it’s going to explode.

  36. Not to mention it gets covered up all the time. If it's a real fuckup and the hospital wants to distance themselves, they get shuffled around just like the catholic priests do when abuse comes to light.

  37. Medical errors are probably not as grossly negligent as the one described above. You are usually dealing with already unhealthy/wounded people.

  38. Yeah this tweet is complete circle jerk BS. 100% that woman should be held accountable for what she did but 100% if a doctor “confused” a scalpel for a thermometer that would be manslaughter. She literally states the fact it was an accident in the hypothetical, how tf are people upvoting this.

  39. Nobody seems to be talking about the fact that the Taser is typically holstered on the non-dominant side of the body opposite of their service weapon. Specifically to help ensure that it is not confused with a gun.

  40. Qualified immunity is used in civil courts. Cops are liable in 3 settings: Criminal, civil, and departmental. QI only protects against civil issues.

  41. Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought qualified immunity was just to protect officers from civil suits over doing their job. It doesn't mean they're immune from getting fired, or serving time on criminal charges.

  42. They would not be arrested for murder. Murder requires premeditation. They may be sued for malpractice, or, at worst, charged with manslaughter. But not murder.

  43. Doctors are the third leading cause of death in America. They kill literally hundreds of thousands more people per year in the U.S. than the police.

  44. Damn I honestly did not know that I feel your not gonna be popular saying that in this thread though. But thank you for teaching me something new.

  45. And its not a real arguement since QI is mainly a civil liability thing so all that would happen is that police departments, like hospitals would have to get some version of malpractice insurance

  46. But they wouldn't. Theyd be charged with criminal negligence and wrongful death, right, because murder is intent to kill, right?

  47. Doctors don't generally get tried for murder just for being incompetent. They lose their job and get sued with huge civil liabilities, sure. But it's not generally murder. Now murder; that's murder.

  48. Well it’s not a hypothetical comparison. Because, for example, doctors leave tools inside of people and then stitch them up. Terrible mistakes happen in every important profession too!

  49. A gun is so much heavier and feels so different in your hand . Idc what the situation is, you do mistake a real pistol for a stun gun....

  50. High stress situation and adrenaline can really confuse people, even trained people. Less so for WELL trained people of which most cups really aren't. That said even if an accident, this is manslaughter.

  51. I'm gambling on may 4th being the day of the next shooting/hate crime since I guess America is back in the game now that we're recovering from covid

  52. Yea well doctors are highly trained individuals. Their profession is very important and necessary. They make a sacrifice when they decide to go into their fie They train until they're truly ready to do their jobs, and they swear an oath. Can't exactly expect cops to have similar standards, can we?

  53. AND lose licensure. Police would benefit from a governing body they had to register through who controlled their licensure outside of their employer or union. If I kill a patient, I can be arrested, sued, fired, and lose my license to practice anywhere.

  54. I was Security Forces in the Air Force 10 years ago, and basically an overpaid mall cop. Never once did I have to use any of my substantial training, that taxpayers paid about $25k for, but I can guarantee you that if I had “accidentally” shot a suspect...I would still be in Leavenworth prison.

  55. This is the dumbest statement I’ve seen anyone make in the last 24 hours, which is saying something. Whether it’s the cops or a surgeon, you need to apply the law to the facts, just as it would if you are ever charged with anything. To make broad statements like this only shows your ignorance.

  56. I don't think this Twitter user understands, or has probably ever even heard of, culpable mental state. To play devil's advocate, no... a doctor would not be charged with "murder" in that set of circumstances. Would there be repercussions? Absolutely! ...but no grand jury would be convened.

  57. Aah land of the free. With the highest incarceration rates and no healthcare for all, where you can get shot dead for nothing. That patriotic cry must be sarcasm

  58. That's false. Sued for medical malpractice probably. Certainly not homicide. Manslaughter wouldn't stick -- likely not even charged. Would be settled in civil court. This tweet is dumb.

  59. Yeah but a doctor gets more than 6 months of basic training and was probably not a hot headed nob at school

  60. I can totally see someone doing this, but if you are a cop, and you can't figure out that a heavy, metal pistol isn't a plastic dart gun, you are going to jail. You killed a human being. He doesn't get a second chance.

  61. Regular cops don't need guns. We have separate armed police that are called out here if needed but there's no good reason for a traffic stop to require deadly force

  62. Shit, if you work at a tire and lube place and put engine oil in the transmission you’ll likely see harsher treatment than these pampered assholes.

  63. Ah the dumb US @ work, where criminals can be found in police and politics. What a pathetic and inhumane, 4th world "country" it has become.

  64. I thought it was a yield sign, nope it was a stop sign ignorance is not an excuse. Actual thing a cop told me once when a sign that had been a yield for years changed to a stop sign and I didn't notice.

  65. While i 100000% agree with your point, thats just not true. If a doctor did this they would get fired, lose their license and likely be held accountable in a civil case for damages.

  66. There is no way anyone trained to use a firearm could realistically confuse it with a taser, especially those big heavy steel Barretta 92FS’ most cops have.

  67. No they wouldn’t and yes it is. It’s amazing what surgeons can get away with in the OR even if you report them through your organizations system. Being a circulating nurse you see a lot of dumb and dangerous stuff they do.

  68. To me, the bigger point is that, while obviously guilty of a crime, this cop would've been fine if she'd turned off her body cam and said "I thought he reached for a gun" like other bad cops. Stupidity gets punished worse than malice and cops are allowed the kind of plausible deniability that let's them get away with murder.

  69. You literally sign a waiver before surgery saying that the doctor or a nurse may screw up and that you waive the right to hold them personally responsible.

  70. The meme above is idiocy. A doctor in that situation would not be charged with murder, unless intent to kill could be proven. Malpractice or negligence could play a role, but would not necessarily rise to the level of criminality. Accidents occur in all professions, all walks of life.

  71. If stupidity is your best defense you shouldn't have been hired in the first place. The woman deserves to be charged with manslaughter. If she can't handle a high stress job she should have never became a cop. She has no excuse. Guns and tasers on are separate sides of the belt. The weights of the 2 are significantly different. The colors are different. This should have never happened.

  72. If anyone actually thinks the cop mistook the gun for their taser, then you're just as dumb as the cop. They yelled taser while knowingly grabbing their gun because they knew they're on camera. It's their "I clearly made a mistake" defense.

  73. Perhaps you should need a BA/BS in humanities or social sciences for admission to a police academy that's another two years of specialized training, at least. Then once you graduate you have to carry insurance to do the job.

  74. This is like a firefighter grabbing the gas can (for their chainsaws and other combustion tools) off their rig instead of their water can and pouring gas all over someone that was on fire instead of water.

  75. I mean I don’t think it’s murder. I forget what the exact definition of manslaughter is, but the charge I assume would take into account that it was an accident.

  76. A doctor also typically operates as an owner-operator professional corporation and holds malpractice insurance. Police officers are typically municipal or state employees

  77. Exactly, even accidental murder is manslaughter.. you don't get to just kill someone, and because it was an "accident", you get a way with it...it's a crime to accidentally kill someone's, and cops obviously need more training, they're trigger happy, jumpy, and have no respect for the citizens they are supposed to be serving not a good combo. We keep talking about gun control..we need to start with the police.

  78. It’s not a crime to accidentally kill someone, there’s a lot more that goes into a manslaughter charge and even then manslaughter is usually going to result in probation.

  79. Look, law enforcement here. We have some idiots in the agency I work for, and yet not a single one of us can fathom how you "accidentally" draw a firearm instead of a taser. We all keep ours on opposite hips. Taser on the non dominant side.

  80. Those who are given the power to take life should be held to a higher standard than anyone else. Great power is supposed to come with great responsibility, not impunity.

  81. I'm certainly no expert, but I think the crime you're looking for is Manslaughter...the law states that you can be charged with Manslaughter if your reckless behavior caused the death of another person. But let's be honest...no Doctor would confuse a scalpel for a thermometer unless they were impaired. If this were the case, they'd be operating under the influence, which is a crime, and they could then be charged with Criminally Negligent Homicide if their criminally negligent behavior caused the death of another person. But not Murder

  82. Actually negligent manslaughter not murder in a legal sense, both would be charged with that. Murder gets thrown around too much, it insinuates there was preconceived motive. There was not, she was just a horrible cop.

  83. They would by no means be charged with murder. Stop this type of thing. It allows your argument to be crushed factually immediately, thus discrediting the argument altogether. List reasons why this shouldn’t have happened, not use these types of erroneous posts. I’m on your side, but the Dr. , lawyer, ceo. (Who fund lobbyist groups) don’t want to be lumped in with police. Doing so will only make them lobby harder for them.

  84. I want to be clear, I am not defending the cops actions. Immediate action should happen. I don't even think she has been arrested yet, imagine if some non-cop did this, would they be able to walk away from that scene that didn't involve cuffs?

  85. There needs to be higher qualifications and much more training to be a police officer. Right now it’s basically anyone who’s willing to do the job.

  86. Sooo, as much as I hate pigs and support accountability for police, this is simply an incorrect statement and only helps build the narrative that "liberals have big hearts and small brains." A doctor killing someone by accident is not murder, it is manslaughter if criminal charges are filed in the first place, and most likely they would only be SUED (civil) for malpractice and wrongful death. Murder requires INTENT.

  87. While i think the officer involved is an idiot, this analogy is equally idiotic. That doctor would not be charged with murder, but would be responsible for gross negligence. Same applies to this cop. She was grossly negligent, but not murderous. The department and the city will pay out to the family, as they should for this. Ideally, the cop would have civil liability too, but unfortunately, that's unlikely. Accidents are not murder. If people keep calling murder when it's obviously not, don't be surprised if the plaintiffs are acquitted (eg Zimmerman). Manslaughter in some degree, yes, that could be possible. Not murder.

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