you cant say sustainable without saying fuck golf courses

  1. Make it all mixed use! Or if you want to stick with Euclidean (not recommended), make the ones closest to the highway business use to take the brunt of the noise.

  2. They said a dense walkable neighborhood, it wouldn't be dense or walkable w/o amenities. What is this? Am Instagram post? Whatever, it's a tiny blurb. It would probably be worth explicitly stating the inclusion of amenities in anything longer, but I'll let it slide as implicit in this little thing.

  3. To get the number 40,000 residents, these must be some serious towers. So I'd imagine they have some built in commercial use on the bottom floors.

  4. Fuck golf courses, I hate them to the core. Imagine the resources needed to maintain them when there is drought next door

  5. During the lockdown in Melbourne, playing golf wasn't allowed but going for a walk was. They opened up a few golf courses to the public and they became just like regular parks. People loved it and lamented when they went back to being golf courses

  6. Where I live, in the UK, a golf course closed down a few years ago. So the city bought it and turned it into a park, complete with rewilding projects, a little cafe, and a place to hire bikes. It's lovely.

  7. It was actually announced before COVID, but during COVID here in Brisbane they closed down a big golf course right in the inner city, to be permanently changed into a public park, with some small golf facilities (driving range, putt putt) to stay. It's a rare really good decision from our current Council administration.

  8. What if we change the golf course landscaping to incorporate native plants instead of non-native grass? Not only will it be easier to maintain and better for the environment, but the golf course will also look more unique!

  9. Most cheaper muni courses are already this way, basically just fields mowed really low. It's only the higher end clubs throwing a shitton of water and chemicals onto their imported grass. Which is why they cost like 5 times as much.

  10. A lot of courses already do this though? I know the courses here in my area are pretty natural to what you would find normally anyway.

  11. The White House report on housing affordability casually noted that LA has a single golf course big enough to be replaced by 50,000 apartments if the city allowed the kind of density you see outside North America. But everything is zoned low density in LA.

  12. It's even more fucked than that. Prop 13, which has been fucking over California housing markets for decades, was pushed by the golf industry. Golf has fucked an entire state.

  13. Fortunately they are there because if they weren’t they’d be sprawling single family homes and single story retail. Now, if they close them, they can build dense mixed use developments.

  14. Doesn't the city/county run a course that was built on an old landfill? seems like a decent use of the land considering it wouldn't really be suitable to build housing there without considerable work being done on the landfill site

  15. If I had to guess, they might predate urban sprawl, and were originally in the suburbs/rural areas. Who knows though, that’s just an optimistic guess

  16. Wait until you find out how much land in LA is being used to pump oil to make gas for cars. There are hundreds of fake buildings in LA county that exist to hide oil pumpjacks.

  17. You have to drive 3 hours to the nearest resort…. because that’s where the mountains are?

  18. Lmfao, I just opened LA on Google Maps and zoomed into the first stretch of green I saw and it's a golf course. Did it another time and take a guess what happened.

  19. I used to do tree preservation work on construction sites and unfortunately, some of the trees that aren't actually in the building footprints would have to come down to make this happen. There needs to be space for staging and moving material and equipment. You can replant the area afterward, but it takes time for mature trees to grow in. Some of the trees would probably be able to be saved, but probably not as many as OP thinks.

  20. That’s what I think when I see this. Just look at your local neighborhood being constructed. The builder is gonna clear and flatten most of the land and cut down most trees. It will look more like a boring neighborhood than pretty park once construction is complete. This is a dumb post.

  21. TBF, golf courses as a concept are fine and can even be great. What's dumb is plopping them in the middle of residential areas. They should be more secluded, but they're always surrounded by housing.

  22. Golf can be played fairly cheaply. I come from a middle class family and I was able to play golf through high school competitively for cheap clubs and a yearly team fee. Muni courses exist and can be played for under 50 bucks in some cases. Like most things, golf is as expensive as you want it to be

  23. Golf isn't an expensive sport, lol. Second hand clubs are pretty affordable as far as sporting equipment goes and going to your local council (municipal in the US) course is way more affordable than you think.

  24. Golfing is probably one of the oldest bourgeois flexes in modern history. Think about it, what better way to celebrate being a land owner than to play a game that requires acres of land for a relatively small group of players.

  25. Modern golfing isn’t that old. Calling a golf course “links” comes from linksland, a type of sand-heavy soil (basically a grassy beach) which is where golfing was popular in Scotland, because the land wasn’t suitable for agricultural use. It’s a modern abomination to use perfectly good land, or even worse to cultivate grass where it wouldn’t even grow naturally, for golfing.

  26. Ball golf is just a strictly worse version of disc golf, which instead can easily be incorporated into parks and forests with almost no changes to the environment.

  27. I payed 200€ for clubs like 7 years ago and about 15€ when I go out golfing, it’s really not a rich sport

  28. Plenty of public golf courses everywhere in America and Europe where normal people can play a 9 hole course for $30. You have a shitty opinion simply because you can only think of golf as the sport you watch on TV where millionaires fly to play in private courses.

  29. I was looking at LA on Google earth one day and like.... wtf is wrong with that city? It's like half highway half golf course... How the fuck do y'all in America tolerate having so much space taken up for this dumb rich people sport? Like for other sports I get having a massive stadium, since it's a spectator sport and you wanna fit as many people as possible, but golf courses are literally just parks that can't have a lot of CO2 absorbing trees in them and that the public can't access, for a sport with barely any spectators, wtf? And the fact that they're like right in the middle of cities. If you wanna have golf courses why not build them like.... in rural areas, why take up literally the most valuable space?

  30. They were in rural places, Lots of golf courses are very old, when they built them they were the middle of nowhere. When I was in HS the CC I played at had houses on all three sides. The fourth side was basically a river. The course was founded in the ‘20’s. Zero of those houses existed 100 years ago.

  31. Love the idea, but please for the love of christ stop making these tall apartment buildings with an enclosed courtyard in the middle. Every noise in the courtyard is amplified and echoes. So any units facing inside are miserable to live in.

  32. Another problem is that in hot areas they can become close to 10 degrees hotter than the actual outside air and have higher pressure making air conditioning units placed in them much less efficient.... Ask me how I know.

  33. My high school had a courtyard like this, was meant for the students to use in their free time but they closed it off not long after the school first opened because any noise in there was a serious distraction to any classroom that were inward facing lol

  34. I think green buildings and balconies will actually help that quite a bit, and luckily that's also a think that's becoming more common.

  35. The courtyards also often struggle to get enough light for anything to grow leaving the landscaping looking like shit.

  36. lived in one, on the bottom floor, and thank goodness the complex paid for daily mowing and weed-whacking at 7am, and i worked 4pm to 4am almost every night

  37. If you'd like to find out how and why golf courses are allowed to destroy the environment, evade taxes, and reduce housing for the rest of us, check out malcolm gladwell's podcast essay "A Good Walk Spoiled"

  38. I am an avid golfer and I agree with all his points when talking about private courses in big cities. In his podcast he is mainly talking about courses in LA. The courses there are very exclusive and take up large amounts of prime real estate and pay no taxes. However, he only tells one side of the story on golf. Read up on golf in Scotland/U.K. and also public golf in mid size cities/rural areas of the US. Its much more accessible, affordable and environmentally friendly.

  39. Golf courses are usually a great way of maintaining dedicated parks that also, mostly, pay for themselves.

  40. Gota agree with you. Unfortunately people don't realise that in our insanely urbanised cities, golf courses are one of the few areas where the general wildlife can find space to breath. Having trees in a neighbourhood is not good enough. (Source: BSc cons ecol)

  41. My local course has created a hybrid golf course and park, where there are signs and paths for people to use if they wanna go for walks. The paths are set up in a way that they interfere minimally with the golf course, but where they do, golfer are aware and respect if there are people walking by, and vice versa. Its a great system really

  42. I pointed this out too. I absolutely can believe that only one other person caught this and that nobody even noticed this comment.

  43. They closed a golf course about 2 blocks from me, putting up houses. They start at 1 million so this isn’t all good.

  44. Yeah it's not safe to be a kid on a golf course. Golf courses are pretty to look at but pretty useless to everyone else if you're not a golfer. When I was 10-19 and even until now, I was not a golfer, to say the least 😆, and I'm pretty sure most kids would find golf to be boring.

  45. I have absolutely no idea what any of this means but it has 26 upvotes. Someone please tell me I'm not having a stroke.

  46. It’d be so interesting to have little forested parks nested between housing blocks. But the ‘garden cities’ in the UK haven’t really worked out well…

  47. Very true! I used to have one walk that I could actually peacefully walk a solid 2 miles. The only stretch that wasn't this large single-family mansionesque housing nonsense was a golf course. I got used to it and eventually it stopped bothering me so much, especially at night, but moving to the US from another country and seeing this was the only non-housing space in the one of the only pleasantly walkable spaces...

  48. Why not turn the golfcourse into a massive park or let it heal back to its natural ecosystem, and densify areas around it?

  49. A beautiful park massively changes land values around. Look at central park in Manhattan or any other good urban park or waterfront

  50. I would agree usually but with Canadas housing prices up 300%, I rather things like golf courses turn into super dense, beautiful neighbourhoods.

  51. Honestly I kinda like golfing though, is it really that bad for planning? I don't really consider golf course as part of suburban sprawl in my opinion, but I'd also like to see what other people think

  52. Golf courses are a mixed bag. On the one hand, they require an immense amount of space. On the other hand, we should be dedicating space to leisure activities, even if not everyone enjoys them.

  53. It's also so far down the list of priorities it's a moot point right now. Golf courses aren't usually located in neighbourhoods suited for dense walkable or alternative transport areas anyways. If a golf course was torn down in your city and replaced with "dense housing" there's a 90% chance it'll

  54. agreed. i have great memories of playing golf with my family. and they aren't even close to the "rich white people" stereotype

  55. Can I just say that I think golf is a cool and unique sport and I wouldn’t want for it to go away. Not necessarily disagreeing with the logic that golf courses take up a lot of space that could be used for housing, but I don’t think that golf courses are the culprits of housing shortages and car brains.

  56. God damn I love this sub but damn is it anti golf. I use golf to relax, get some exercise in, and spend time with friends. Can’t we just get rid of bullshit suburbia and keep some courses?

  57. Same. In the PNW of America there are gorgeous golf courses that are public and cheap to play. Fuck cars, yes. But people's perception of golf here is totally warped.

  58. Working for a major developer, I can tell you for sure this would not work to save the trees. Removing that much top soil and digging foundations would wreck the top soil enough to kill the trees. Not to mention all the heavy equipment that’s somehow going to snake through the former course? And I guess they forgot where drainage and a sewer is going…

  59. Yeah, if these plans were submitted for approval they’d get laughed out of the building. Where do the services go? Emergency vehicle access? Two way bike paths, footpaths, water treatment, construction access, tree protection?

  60. I hate golf courses so much. So many times, I'll see some country fencing along the roads here and think 'oh, I bet this is a pretty horse pasture'......only for it to be a golf course with some fat guys on a cart.

  61. I don't like this post. This is when some of this sub wants the world to be a place for them and not for everyone. Coore & Crenshaw build courses that strive to be sustainable. It's true country clubs are expensive and exclusive, but city/county municipal courses are usually affordable so that anyone can play and they do not have the strict rules that country clubs do. But then again, country clubs are usually in rural areas, which is not the concern of this movement or sub. Golf is huge in the elderly community because it's one of the only physical activities you can do into your 80s.

  62. In my city the muni courses are absolutely not just for the affluent. Everyone uses them. I guess you could pave over them but fuckin why?

  63. One of the things I learned in my meteorology classes was that golf courses were often (not always, but often) built on land that was prone to natural disasters. The one I live by is essentially a flood plain.

  64. okay i get it, but i don't. why do i have to hate the sport of golf? anyone who thinks it's just for rich people is an idiot. my family was dirt poor, and we've been avid golfers for generations. it's not exclusive to rich people. if you get a job at a course, you can play for free. you can join the team at school. thrift shops have usable clubs if you're on a budget... so many ways to enjoy the game without being supposedly "privileged".

  65. I bought a bag + full set of clubs for $94 and still use them. You don’t need a ton of money to golf.

  66. Except half those trees would get bulldozed by the construction company to get them out of way of all the work trucks, dump trucks, pipelines, and earthworks. And everyone living there would need cars to travel around town to do basic daily errands because the light rail won’t alleviate the the lack of basic community public transit.

  67. why do we have to take the recreation area in the suburbs and turn it into apartments? why can't we put apartments elsewhere?

  68. Ehhhh idk about this. We don’t have to throw up residential buildings in every green space we can see; and people should be allowed to do hobbies and sports too


  70. But all condo/apartment buildings with commercial floor-level spaces for local businesses, built around small public "forums", multiple of which are grouped together within walking distance with interspersing parks in-between and ultimately connected to the city center and outlying areas by extensive public transportation would be too ideal!

  71. Only in urban areas. There are tons of nice courses out in the lesser populated rural areas that are fantastic and don’t do any harm to the housing situation.

  72. I hate golf but saying fuck your hobby is stupid. Golf is a healthy sport and if you look at football clubs they also waste much space on some grass fields. I do love the design the guy put over it tho, that is amazing!

  73. When you say football, do you mean American football or soccer? At least (near me) with soccer, their fields are multiuse and you can play other sports there. Drawing a blank with (American) football fields.

  74. I love this idea! Golf is so stupid and wasteful. Our local golf course gets groomed for XC skiing in the winter and as far as I’m concerned that is the only time when it is useful. Would gladly give that up to build affordable housing tho.

  75. There are so many better ways to address this issue than to try and dunk on a way people get outside and moving around. It’s green space and something that older people can also participate in. There’s about a million ways we can improve housing and land use before killing sports.

  76. Fuck ball golf, disc golf courses are far more superior in that there’s little mowing and cutting of live trees and everyone is welcome.

  77. There is a golf course at the bottom of the garden which is now disused so I have a huge wooded wildlife garden accessible through my back gate.

  78. "BuT WHeRe wIlL i PaRK" the retailers, sell it and get a bike or a scooter doesnt matter if its electric there's online shopping now

  79. Yes but think about how much water would be saved, and how many fewer pesticides would be getting into the waterways if we did something like that!

  80. Tbf, sustainability is mostly about "fuck this" and "fuck that", but out of the reason for seeking improvement. And I rather call these improvements sustainability, as the disliking of present shit.

  81. We need super blocks. Maybe I want more public Park space here tho. I feel like the looming loneliness crisis requires more space for 40000 people

  82. They just voted to save a major gold course here in Florida, near UF. It's literally right down from the university on one of the busiest roads in the city. There's already a ton of apartments and a huge plaza that literally was torn down to be rebuilt 5 times the size.. why, oh, why, won't people consider more walkable communities in a city pushing for more?? What use is a golf course compared to that?? And who is even allowed to vote on this stuff because I had no say even though I live down the road from it.

  83. I live in a major city in Australia, and the two closest train lines to me literally go through golf courses. Both of these golf courses are 15km tops away from the CBD.

  84. Reddit's hatred of golf is so ridiculous. It's a healthy, fun hobby where you actually get fresh air and sunshine and....Oh wait, I can see why basement-dwelling Redditors hate it now....

  85. This is exactly how I feel about the golf course in West Seattle. So much opportunity for housing wasted on a barely used giant monstrosity for wealthy old white men.

  86. I am at the age where most workers are meeting out on the golf course and doing the golf social thing. Am I alone in wondering, why is this place not an open park? what is the deal with locking all these resources up for a couple of people to walk around in some of the most expensive real estate?

  87. If anyone here is in Western WA, check out Bayshore Preserve just north of Shelton. It was a bankrupt golf course bought by a local land trust and is in the process of being returned to native forest and prairie. I worked on the initial couple years and it's undergone a massive change already. The salmon are back spawning in the creek and native flowers, trees, and shrubs are now retaking the fairways and creek banks. Beautiful place to visit!

  88. My father works at a country club and has been whining about how they won't be able to water because of drought... Like wtf!? Maybe water wouldn't be an issue if the entitled didn't constantly waste resources on fields of grass no one can use besides to look at or walk past.

  89. Everyone should listen to Malcolm Gladwell's podcast on Golf courses. To summarize: elitist institutions that waste massive amount of resources and are subsidized by the general public to benefit the rich.

  90. I live on a golf course in a suburb. And I love to play golf. Can someone explain why this is bad? I’m genuinely asking.

  91. Because a bunch of kids that have never left the city, or their houses, want you to save the environment while they live in their concrete jungle of hell.

  92. Um this isn’t illegal or anything you guys…but I guarantee the existing houses on the golf course will be all sorts of against it. Golf isn’t the problem, NIMBYs and ineffective zoning laws are to blame

  93. Golf courses should be used as public parks and nature sanctuaries with native plants if not public farming projects where people can come and get food rather than adding more driving to get to more homes. Animals and nature deserves a place more so than roads.

  94. You people are naive to believe that a “sustainable” replacement would be used if the land was sold off, it would just be filled meter to meter to squeeze every last drop of cash.

  95. They don’t like to build houses like that anymore, if they were to remove a golf course they’d fill the space with as many houses as they could cram in. Thinking they’d save most of the trees is just a fantasy

  96. The ground underneath cities is still living and needs to breath, there’s designated parks( like Central Park in NYC) that need to be there for these city streets not to crack and erode away

  97. Ah yes pod housing. The ideal society of cramming as many people into as little space as possible. Any recreational activities bad! Work, sleep and breed. Lemming brain can't understand more.

  98. Lol this sub is a bunch of betas. This would only marginally apply to golf clubs in cities. How about the ones in the country? Destroy greenery and beautiful Mountain Views to build buildings and ruin nature? You guys are mentally ill.

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