Sick and tired of hearing about how guns are going to protect our rights. Voting in numbers too large to suppress or gerrymander is what does that.

  1. Enough…. there’s too much left infighting that it’s impossible to weed out those participating in good faith and the righties jumping in for free hits.

  2. Why not both? Organizing and voting is the proper approach to affect change in a functional democracy. Our creaky old Constitution already has us down in the 3rd tier, and with the voting changes happening in the far right states, the next president may likely be installed rather than legitimately elected.

  3. Absolutely. What I'm saying is that political change within the framework of a civil society is not obtained at the barrel of a gun. We should absolutely arm ourselves against the possibility of civil society failing.

  4. With abortion, I genuinely think it’s not so far around the corner sometimes… People are going to die because of this, there’s no way someone out there isn’t going to put up a fight of some sort first. Where is the line, I often wonder?

  5. Nope. I'm still not buying a gun. Id rather die in the ignorance of society than be part of the reason it fails. Stop watching Fox, shesh, no one's out to get dems or repubs. You don't defend against fascism by becoming more fascist first.

  6. “The First Amendment is first for a reason. Second Amendment is just in case the first one doesn't work out." -Dave Chappelle-

  7. Good thing gun owners are as committed to the 1A as they are to the 2A and there definitely isn't a thread in this sub right now discussing the merits of limiting 1A rights. /s

  8. The current first and second amendments were actually the third and fourth proposed, the first two just didn't get passed.

  9. This is a pretty privileged perspective imo. People are getting gunned down in super markets. In PDX we recently had someone get shot through the head while they directing traffic and several injured (the shooter was stopped by an armed member of the protest).

  10. And a firearm may be useful during a terrorist attack. But I'm at a loss as to what you think the Democrats could have or should have done, especially given their minimal level of control of government, to prevent something like the supermarket shooting.

  11. If you can look at the state of politics and our divided and oppressed nation and still believe that you can make meaningful change within the framework of that same system, I don't believe you've gotten to the conclusion yet. Those in power who wish to exploit you will never give it up by means of that society's civil function.

  12. I mean considering they're laying the groundwork to just declare elections they don't like void and send it to state legislators suppression and gerrymandering are moot at that point.

  13. If you look at the lowest population states, you only need about 15 percent of eligible voters to filibuster the Senate. Getting 85 percent on board is easier said than done. But OP is ignoring that.

  14. It’s just a matter of time before these mass shootings transfer from schools and churches to political events. We’ll see changes then, if only to gun laws.

  15. Glad you have the privilege of living in an area that's safe. Don't take it for granted. This society is, in fact, not civil for everyone. I vote as I'm able to for candidates who claim to uphold values I support, of which there are few. Those candidates never win, of course. No one's going to vote a socialist into office. But I vote. It's basically a symbolic gesture at this point, but I refuse to give my vote to the two party system. I refuse to legitimize the system that gives either a theocratic fascist in a red tie or the spineless corporatist seat warmer in a blue tie as the main options.

  16. While we are talking about privilege, I'm glad that you have the privilege it takes to sit outside the process rather than influence it. You're right that no one is going to elect a socialist. Maybe find the person who supports more incremental reforms which will improve the lives of people, and support them?

  17. I hate to be that person, but whats the point voting for dems who will wholesale restrict my right to defend as you say? I'm going to vote dem, and I don't like it, but look at the writing on the wall.

  18. If you're referring to armed components of the civil rights movement, hey, man, absolutely, do community defense if there's a real violent threat to your community. But what made the civil rights movement was when the argument got so good, that even white people paid attention. People remember Martin Luther King Jr far more than they do Malcolm X, and that movement was driven by protest and political organization.

  19. Voting is still an important tool in our toolbox. It is worth it to keep using it at every level we can.

  20. Yes yours is obviously plan A. But there is a reason they say a mans rights are found in three boxes. Ballot box, jury box and the cartridge box.

  21. I absolutely think we should arm ourselves against the breakdown in civil society. But we should first work against that breakdown.

  22. Yes but, you do understand that the purpose of voter suppression and gerrymandering is to make voter turnout irrelevant, right? Like that's... that's the point.

  23. You can't gerrymander a referendum or a statewide race. Show up, win those races, use the power afforded by them to end gerrymandering.

  24. Seriously, all you "just vote blue harder" people, what has that gotten us in the last 20 years? The best the Democrats have done at the federal level was the ACA, which is just a way to make insurance companies even more profitable. At the state level, at least in every red state, they've done absolutely nothing of any use to anyone.

  25. How democratic are we? We have 15% of the country deciding the candidates to run in races. Then 10% of those are competitive. Where party policy drives all of the voting( or the candidate loses there funding). Two party’s have suppressed and monopolized the whole political system and won’t be fixed unless we take up major overhauls that either party won’t consider.

  26. Democrats are generally supportive of instant runoff balloting. You want reform, vote them in, and vote for Democrats who champion that reform in the primaries.

  27. Not even thinking about the recent shootings. There's always a recent shooting. I was thinking about a conversation I had earlier with a libertarian member of this forum about how without our guns, we wouldn't have any liberties.

  28. You're quite correct. People think guns are the solution because they watch too much TV / too many movies. In Hollywood guns are the solution. In real life things are more difficult, it requires organizing.

  29. Thank you for saying this. The moment someone brings a gun to openly display in larger society, through it's possession alone they're bringing a threat of violence with it, and an implicit attempt to alter the behavior of everyone in their vicinity - Not just those who are "potential threats".

  30. So, on the one hand you're saying a gun is a tool for defensive purposes. On the other you say that you cannot threaten force and not fulfill that threat and expect the threat to still hold water. Then you go on to say that owning and carrying guns to coerce others is the object of owning and carrying. I do not carry to imply that I will use force. I carry to use force when force is necessary. Guns are not violent, nor are they capable of violence. If someone gets scared of a gun it's because they are scared not because one has a gun. That is unless a person is brandishing and/or threatening with the gun. I do not think anyone carrying a gun is violent because they're carrying, but I do think they are capable of violence. I do not feel threatened when someone is carrying unless other factors are present. The presence of a firearm does not deter me from being violent, my conscience does.

  31. Bundy and co. were armed during their occupation, as were any number of right-wing folks when the occupied capitol buildings across the country during quarantine - warnings and a few wrist-slaps.

  32. This post is odd. Maybe the title is a little click bait? You seem to acknowledge that firearms are clearly part of the structure that protects rights, but despite that make generalized statements that imply they are useless.

  33. Hey look, buddy. I'm an engineer. That means I solve problems. Not problems like "What is beauty?" Because that would fall within the purviews of your conundrums of philosophy.

  34. Awfully hard to vote in those kinds of numbers when so many people can't afford to miss work to vote. Or when they're trapped in a gerrymandered mess. Or when there's only two parties and the nation is in such bad shape that millions no longer believe it can be fixed by either party. Or when the fascist side of things has no issue using violence and then legalizing that violence specifically for them. Or when the last two GOP presidents entered the presidency on a loss. Or when the campaigns are treated more like sports. Or when...

  35. What is wrong with liberal memory? An extremist right wing minority came way too close to ending voting in the US less than two years ago. How do you forget that?

  36. Imagine coming to these comments to see a constructive case for how OP thinks that this position ought to be implemented, but just being met by their bad-faith arguments against dissenting opinions and privileged talking points. 🤔

  37. Oh my! Well, if people don't feel that it's reasonable to try to overcome gerrymandering with political organization, well, what do you think the solution is?

  38. Hey I just want to say thank you. Seriously thank you for saying out loud what I've been thinking for years. It's good to be armed. It's good to want to protect yourself. But it's soooo much better to have rights and protections provided to us by our government. That's the whole point of government is to give up something for the greater good of all people and the protection if all people.

  39. Our system makes peaceful revolution hard. But it is not yet impossible. Which makes violent revolution unwise and undesirable.

  40. Man half the people I talk to don’t know what gerrymandering IS, and I’m in TEXAS in the worst gerrymandered district possibly in existence. Mf’s have no clue it’s happening to them

  41. Guns are a last resort method of defense. But in order for you to have one available when it’s needed, you have to have it available when it’s not needed.

  42. A number of liberals (and centrists) have taken an interest in arming themselves to directly counter the personal threat of violence that many on the right represent. Some right wingers are passive-aggressive about it, others are very overt and openly threaten, but in both cases, the threat is real.

  43. Thinking we can vote our way out of this 2 party duopoly is naive imo. Both the dems and republicans are right wing. It’s going to take protesting and civil unrest to overthrow this shit oligarchy failed state.

  44. Lot of pretty words… but your point is entirely false.. doubt me? Ask Michigan state senate who had people piled into thier chambers with guns.

  45. Everything you said is spot on. I would love to live in a world where I dont have to carry every day. That the worse diffrence in the political parties is that one wants to raise taxes and one wants to spend to much money. But we dont we live in a world where the difference in parties is the diffrence in Facism and freedom. I spent 9 years as a soldier and thought what I was doing was protecting freedom. But if they think I wont turn this skills against them to protect my fellow Americans then they got a lot wrong.

  46. Well must be nice thinking voting can change things. I mean, look at California and what that voting did. More taxes, less rights, and people using chairs to defend themselves in a church from mass shooter.

  47. Unfortunately as this sub grew it brought a lot of reactionaries who generate some of the same fear mongering posts that right wing subs do, except with a left wing twist to them. I like guns and I'm ultimately here to discuss them amongst people who share my political views, but I don't need doom scrollers telling me I must get armed because the new age "Republikkkans/brown shirts/fascists" are coming to liquidate me.

  48. 100%. Most of this sub is just cosplaying tankies that think they are going to take down some theoretical fascist, authoritarian government by slapping stickers onto their ARs.

  49. When the people saying that they need their guns to defend against tyranny are the same people who keep handing weapons of war to their potential tyrannical oppressors, you have to start to wonder what they really plan to do with their guns.

  50. As I've said elsewhere, most of the pro-2A "we need guns to defend out freedoms!" types just don't seem to care about any other rights as much as they care about the 2A. As long as they get to keep their guns they're probably OK. If pro-2A folks fought for the other amendments and other freedoms half as hard as they fight for their 2A rights this would be a far better place than it is.

  51. I mean, countries that had less gun rights also tended to be far more restricted in terms of other rights e.g. Australia and Canada had some form of detainment for those entering the country unvaccinated, they can tend to restrict offensive speech more, etc. If one right can be sacrificed to try to better the well-being of the collective, other rights start to be sacrificed that way too.

  52. I think people need to realize, once we go down the road where it's gun battles in the streets, there's no going back. We need to exercise our vote BEFORE we prepare for battle. Even if it's just on the scale of The Troubles, that's thousands of lives lost because we didn't do our due diligence and try our darndest to get these fascists out of power.

  53. Honestly what we should be doing as well is volunteering at the polls on a local level. Republicans are targeting the Secretary of State elections divisions, such as elections security positions. We need people there to apply to those positions and protect elections from the GOP pulling shit before midterms. If you have to appear to be "conservative" in a red state area, then so be it. If worst comes to worst, whatever, but at least start there.

  54. What do you call a group of people with weapons on a particular piece of land? The government. That’s all governments are, and all they ever will be. There is no such thing as civility, all of us are under the threat of a barrel of a gun given the right circumstances. By OP’s own definition, we don’t have a civil society now.

  55. If we can ever get the dems to legislate. They tell us to come out and vote. We do we vote them in office and they do nothing

  56. Except they don't. Got quite a lot done given the level of control they were given (and the deranged, obstructionist opposition) this cycle

  57. haven’t there been multiple studies saying that the average voter has next to no say in what happens on a federal level in terms of elections not to mention every republican president in the last 20 years has lost the popular vote and still win, voting doesn’t protect our rights anymore than waking up and being angry at the state does, we the people protect our rights, with guns

  58. I honestly wish there was a liberal gun owner group in Canada. It’s like guns = conservatives but I care about climate change and inclusive rights.

  59. Open carry is more about letting people know im not worth the attention or jail time to fuck with.

  60. Honestly I don’t know how anyone can still have faith in the US “democratic” system. Even when the so-called “good guys” are in charge, horrific repression takes place. Even when we do vote out the fascists, the fascists still make gains and create anti-human legislation.

  61. The Supreme Court will do what the Republicans put them in office to do - reverse engineer outcomes to favor their party, whenever they think they can get away with it. No more and no less

  62. Amen. I absolutely agree with this. I also like to tell people that if you think your AR-15 is going to protect you against the government clearly you've never heard of a predator drone or a JDAM. The government can kill you from ranges so far away your AR-15 is basically non-existent. We are in an era where armed insurrection will not overthrow the government. They could not leave this

  63. imagine being a female 2a supporter being told that a gun will protect your rights, while an unelected and unaccountable supreme court literally takes away control of your bodily autonomy.

  64. This post is incredibly insightful. Using violence to change the government that you don’t like is antithetical to the core principles democracy. I believe if more people understood and harnessed the power of the vote, respected our nation’s institutions, and could make this distinction they would have second thoughts about the necessity and function of the 2A. The right to use a gun to protect yourself from violence really does make sense. The right to use a gun to change government really doesn’t hold up well if that’s what voting is for.

  65. The stats showing the gun violence is directly higher per citizen in states where it is legal to open carry means nothing to people. People want violence, they desire this.

  66. Open carrying to a protest is a horribly idea. We need to leave the long guns at home. The trend of taking guns to protests is going to lead to powder keg situation. That’s not what democracy is about.

  67. Yes. I mean, did anyone really think we were going to "take up arms" against the government like the fascists on 1/6? No. That would be stupid and short lived. We have to vote, in overwhelming numbers, for the most progressive (non corporate) candidates we can to avoid falling into governmental fascism. The guns are for defending myself from the proto-fascist fuckwits that didn't like the sticker on my car or something.

  68. I agree with most of your sentiment. I think there are far more effective ways to enact popular change. That being said, I think guns ranks up there with the best of them. It’s not the use of them, but the possession and ideology behind them. And before anyone hits me with the ‘you’d need nukes and drones to hold off the American government’, take that up with the men in sandals and pajamas in the sandbox. The American population is the most well armed military in the world. Maybe not the best well trained, but there’s something to be said for strength in numbers.

  69. I've seen "You can't change my mind, I have a gun" floated as a defense against rational discourse. You can't change the mind of zealots.

  70. Go wash your vag....every conservative i know wants honest elections ..funny how leftist tools lament a practice named after a leftist tool...

  71. I'm really losing faith in US democracy. I'm pretty sure that every US citizen could vote for the same thing and they'd still find a way to do something else. Either they'd just straight lie about the results or there'd be some kind of fuckery with delegates and super delegates and voting districts and whatever the fuck they feel like saying cause if doesn't matter anyways, they can and do commit murder with zero repercussions.

  72. Both are important. Eventually there can be a point in which a country becomes so bad that there is no other choice but for its people to defend themselves against a corrupt government or dictatorship (or other critical threat). Simultaneously, voting and engaging in civil debate is critical in preserving the rights of people.

  73. Voting is mostly irrelevant in this country due to the two party stranglehold and inherent corruption of the system. It's literally just the South Park episode. Watch it twice, consider yourself in possession of a BA in Political Science.

  74. Sure they're different. They do a different thing. The point of an axe or chainsaw is to cut wood. The point of a gun is to kill.

  75. Soap box - ballot box - ammo box; in that order. We are getting precariously close to that door number three.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

Author: admin