To those calling Westworld bad storytelling:

  1. I find the show a bit frustrating not because of the non-linear storytelling nor the ambiguity of character motivations, etc... I rather like all of that.

  2. I agree with you on the frontal assault and Lee's death. Well, you could say Lee's death is supposed to show that humans can change, contrary to what the the scene in the Forge talks about.

  3. I agree in part, season 2 was just sloppy... the ghost nation episode should have clued us in that they were veering from the meticulous crafting of story details in season 1 to compromising for a story aesthetic in season 2...

  4. Exactly ... just look at Maeve, she boosted her inteligence in S1 and she is so stupid in S2. And they even buffer her skills, she can now control other hosts.

  5. Very well said. It's a shame that they seemed to improvise a lot more this year and change pretty important things for no good reason, like the marbles. Why have Abernathy leave the park when all you need is his marble? Why do you need to cut open Bernards head to insert his marble into the Cradle but Bernard and Dolores can just stand up and wirelessly enter the Forge? No good reason I can see. I figure the marbles were decided on this season and they had no real idea what was going on last when it came to their "brains".

  6. Well, the premise of the show itself is a bit of a plothole. We have the technology to almost perfectly replicate people? Lets build an amusement park!

  7. Yeah, you're absolutely correct. The problem isn't the ambiguity, it's objectively poor storytelling, with a splash of big budget violence, and cool covers of your favorite 90's songs.

  8. Yes! I fully agree with you. I'm fine with any story decisions they make but when there's just blatant writing differences and pure stupidity in some scenes, now that I can't take.

  9. I understand the gist of your argument but you pigeon hole those of us that genuinely thought this season was bad by saying “they didn’t write this for the casual watcher.”

  10. I agree. I think that whether OP intends it to or not, referring to those who didn't like this season as "casual viewers" is condescending.

  11. It could also be bad storytelling, just because you like something doesn't mean that it doesn't lack in quality.

  12. I'm mostly with you on these opinions. It seems like the creators took great pains to jumble up the story telling to the point of near incoherence with the goal of insisting mystery. This is a fun strategy if it pays off in the end like the Usual Suspects, Momento, Pulp Fiction, but I didnt get the payoff last night.

  13. The more I think about the finale the less it makes sense. Why would Hale be hanging out alone in a dark basement? Why would she not draw a gun at a naked figure approaching? Why would Elise threaten to expose her before she got out? Why would Dolores-as-hale wait so long to reveal herself?

  14. Agree completely. The "we create this show for the audience who can break down the theory" is such bullshit, absolutely condescending, and speaks to their weakness as storytellers. It's far more difficult to craft a compelling plotline with clean story arcs, rational character development, limited plot holes, stakes, and drama.

  15. I agree to almost all of this. I don't think the season was terrible, but is far from being as good as Season 1. It just felt like they were writing this, but changing their minds constantly.

  16. The creator's comments are so similar to how Lost's were while it was airing too. That you had to be smart to get it, and if you didn't get it, it wasn't for you.

  17. These days there are far too many fandoms getting upset simply because the content was not exactly what they expected or felt it should be. It’s extreme entitlement. Really just move on to something you like, or accept that someone else is telling the story.

  18. Yeah I'm trying to be honest with myself and accepting that, after season 2, Westworld is not the show I was expecting. Giving it a bit more time, but I probably won't be returning for the third season.

  19. When I feel disappointed by Westworld, it’s because I feel the show isn’t meeting or exceeding the high bar it set in previous episodes. It has nothing to do with me being entitled, it’s something I can’t help but feel due to the way I watch the show.

  20. If you're writing a complex mystery and weaving breadcrumbs and clues throughout, some people should definitely be able to guess the ending. Most shouldn't. But the fact that SOME people solved the riddle means you told it well. But with reddit and the internet, once one person solves it, everyone knows the answer to the riddle if they want to know.

  21. I had the same issues with the final seasons of Battlestar Galactica. "Who are the final 5?" - who cares. Really, I wanted to see humans vs Cylons, I didn't really care at all for oh my god he's a Cylon! Surprise mother*ka

  22. I've seen a lot of people being like ''Wow, you didn't enjoy the finale? So you clearly don't get the show or shouldn't be watching it!''. The thing is...I enjoy the ''Puzzle box'' kind of story, heck I spent hours surfing this subreddit looking for some juicy theories and even sharing some of my own. I want to be mindfucked...but this finale wasn't confusing, it was rushed and badly written in some parts.

  23. It was not badly written just because you didn't like it. The writing is phenomenal. The storytelling is fantastic. Your opinion is different. That DOES NOT equate to bad writing.

  24. People have a right to watch a TV show. While at the same time like a more straight forward story.

  25. I don't disagree with that. Just advising those people that they are probably going to continue to be dissatisfied with this particular show if they continue to watch, and that isn't necessarily the show's fault but rather an incompatibility issue.

  26. This is a common elitist attitude when it comes to art. I remember way back when Pearl Jam released their second album, they claimed that the music wouldn't appeal to casual fans of their first album-- that this album was for 'real fans' who enjoy rich, complex music, and not for those who enjoy arena rock. Then once the album was released, many of us who didn't enjoy the album as much were reminded that we aren't real fans of music and that the album wasn't meant for us.

  27. If you say so. The truth is that no one is saying that Westworld is only for "real fans" of television or whatever. Just that different people have different tastes. There is no television show that is for everyone. There is no song that is for everyone. If something doesn't fit your tastes, that doesn't make that thing bad. No one is being elitist. You're being silly.

  28. I guess it depends on what one considers to be "good storytelling". For me that means a story that captivates you, keeps your interest, and doesn't leave you confused at the end; if there is a point to be made, or a "moral" to the story, one shouldn't have to re-watch from the start several times, then go on internet forums to glean some interpretation from other, more observant people.

  29. Westworld is fascinating, but it suffers from Nolan's obsession with surprises and magic tricks. I consider the show to be second rate compared to 12 Monkeys.

  30. I am not sure this thread is the best place for a bunch of people to start listing what they like or don't like about the show, as I feel there are other threads better suited for that. That being said, your opinion is noted and perfectly valid, if that makes you feel any better.

  31. Honestly, Season 1 was perfect. It all made PERFECT sense IF you paid close attention to the show. There was a CLEAR separation between the people who understood the show and the people who didn't (multiple timeframes vs linear time arguments EVERYWHERE). And then Season 1 at the end brought everything together for EVERYONE and left no confusion or doubt as to what happens. That's good storytelling.

  32. "A lot of the problem with this subreddit (and most fanbases in general) lies in the fact that too many people try to reframe their own personal opinions and tastes as some "greater truth"."

  33. How so? My point is that everyone's tastes are different and equally valid...but IMO it just seems exhausting spending all of your time declaring things you don't like "universally bad" rather than finding things you DO like.

  34. I think a part of the problem is that people think their opinions and taste somehow speaks to who they are as a person. Something can be bad or good and just because you're a fan or hater of it doesn't make you bad or good by proxy. XY&Z can be bad storytelling/characterization/plot points or whatever and you can still like them without being awful. If you don't think the criticisms are valid then have a discussion about it.

  35. You do know you're able to enjoy a show without treating it like the second coming of christ, right? It's interesting, but it's also obtuse and pretentious.

  36. I am not sure this thread is the best place for a bunch of people to start listing what they like or don't like about the show, as I feel there are other threads better suited for that. That being said, your opinion is noted and perfectly valid, if that makes you feel any better.

  37. and so is your entitlement and confidence that the writing is bad. Where are your accolades? How many cutting edge series have you written for? There are a lot of people who loved this season, you telling them their opinion is obtuse is pretentious.

  38. I really loved the storytelling this season and i appreciate that it was different from anything on television right now. After last night, there really is nothing else for me to watch until sometime next year. On that note, I’m gonna rewatch the whole season.

  39. You should give 12 monkeys a shot. It's almost over but it's one of the best examples of "planned ahead" storytelling I've seen.

  40. I find the fact that no one seems to be talking about the ambition of this show to make such bold (and true) statements about the human condition to be a little appalling. They have been straight up knocking us over the head with "free will doesn't exist", but no one seems to want to engage with it as truth. I guess that's the nature of human beings, but it's still a bummer to me.

  41. I've actually seen people on here trying to argue that the show has bad writing because humans DO have free will. It's bothersome because sure, you can totally argue that fact, but if that is the premise that the show is operating on, or trying to prove, the argument against it is moot because that's NOT the point they're trying to make, so you're focusing on something completely out of context.

  42. Yeah because most of us are to busy trying to figure out what the hell is going on, we don't really have time to dig into the existentialism.

  43. My problem isn’t so much with the show’s complexity but rather with how much wheel-spinning takes place (did we really need that shogun episode?), how much speechifying there is (so much bloated dialogue) and how many stupid, unbelievable actions characters take because it’s convenient to the plot (“this is gonna take a while so let’s all leave the room for four hours.”) Also the action is lazy and ridiculous. Dolores loads a smashed bullet into MIB’s gun? How is that even possible? Did the security teams all learn marksmanship at Stormtrooper Academy? Charlotte ordering her driver to “step on it” when they’re literally following right behind Clementine on her horse? Boilerplate vanilla dialogue like that is peppered throughout the show.

  44. That's how I felt about the leftovers. I wanted so badly to like it...and tons of people do. Ultimately though they made it clear that the mystery wasn't what the show was about, and it alienated me. Not the show's fault, it just happened.

  45. I agree with you 100%. So many people are interpreting “You might end up not liking this because you don’t like things that are going to confuse you that much” as “You might not like this if you’re too dumb to figure it out.” It’s not about intelligence, it’s about interest. The creators aren’t condescending because they want to make a show that appeals to people who think like them, they’re totally free to do it. And guess what? If you don’t like it you don’t have to watch it! But your difference in taste doesn’t make the show bad and it doesn’t make them mean.

  46. I think it also comes down to what people think they are owed from the show, its not unique to Westworld by any stretch, but there is a lot on here. There is this attitude that the writers have a debt to them because they like the show, rather than appreciating it.

  47. "I posted this as a comment but I think it is important enough that it bears posting on its own. No, this isn't about being an elitist fan*, it is about all of us acknowledging that different people like different things "*

  48. Agreed. He pigeon holes us critics as “casual viewers” trying to come at us with some juvenile meta theory that we “just don’t get it” instead of addressing the actual problems with the show that we point out.

  49. I've read opinions that argued that one reason the writing was bad because William was given too little time in the finale and he was that person's favorite character. I have no words. How come people can't see that the one has absolutely nothing to do with the other?

  50. This problem of blurring the lines between subjectivity and objectivity is something I've noticed growing recently, across all forms of art. I've had so many arguments with friends and others who can not grasp the simple idea that just because you don't like something, that does not at all mean it objectively is bad. Sometimes that can be the case, but most times people just assert their personal tastes as what art should be, and if it doesn't fit then "it sucks".

  51. I loved season 2, except I thought the first ~3 episodes were kind of weak. It really picked up with that Delos episode though and I thought it was all pretty good from there on, with a few downs but mostly all highs.

  52. Hey man, after reading through these comments, I just wanna say, I really appreciate your effort.

  53. I am not sure this thread is the best place for a bunch of people to start listing what they like or don't like about the show, as I feel there are other threads better suited for that. That being said, your opinion is noted and perfectly valid, if that makes you feel any better.

  54. I found the storytelling mechanism of Bernard’s scrambled memories intriguing this season and mostly followed everything along just fine, and I enjoyed the season for the most part, but there were definitely moments where poor writing or directing took away from the overall impact of the season as a whole. It’s fine to criticize something you enjoyed because you wanted and expected something that truly exceeded expectations...

  55. I was pretty high and I understood it pretty clearly lol. Pretty stupid to assume people didn’t understand it because they were under the influence. Especially the influence of weed which really doesn’t prevent you from being able to understand a show.

  56. I wouldn't go that far, like I said some people liked it and some didn't. It definitely wasn't what I was expecting myself, and until the last two scenes I too was pretty disappointed in it (partly because I wasn't looking forward to Tessa Thompson as Dolores permanently...I like her, but I wasn't liking her characterization).

  57. I don't understand why so many people seem to think we don't get it. We get it. Just like you said, it was a straightforward episode. This season sucked giant donkey dick relative to the last season. The acting was worse, and the writing was worse. I loved the FUCK out of season 1. I don't know how many times I rolled my eyes at season 2.

  58. I don't get this kind of post here. People can't love a show, but be frustrated with a episode, without be called casuals or be told to watch something ''easier''?

  59. I think the writing is bad because they rehash edgy phil 101 concepts about human nature and free will in the least complex, most ham-handed manner possible. If the writers trust their audience to be astute enough to understand the complexities of the storytelling, they should have also thought highly enough of us to present more complex ideas than, "Humans are simple, predictable brutes who cannot change." There is absolutely a way to frame a human v host conflict with humans playing the antagonist role without making them cartoonishly wicked.

  60. I am not sure this thread is the best place for a bunch of people to start listing what they like or don't like about the show, as I feel there are other threads better suited for that. That being said, your opinion is noted and perfectly valid, if that makes you feel any better.

  61. The difference between season one and two was night and day. I just read that Nolan wrote the Stubbs host reveal the night before they shot it and they completely winged it.

  62. This show has a lot of moments of bad storytelling and world building. It's there, but it doesn't mean that it shouldn't be enjoyable.

  63. "I didn't have time to read or metabolize anything that you're saying but I wanted to take the time to comment and tell you that you're wrong." - Reddit

  64. Absolutely! It's sad that when you try to tell that to somebody who doesn't appreciate WW as we do, they call you an elitist or pretentious.

  65. When you call people who didn't enjoy season 2 or the finale "casual watchers" and that they cannot "track the craziness and convolution", some will call you pretentious. Stalling major plot points until the 90 minute finale by having two filler episodes is questionable writing. In the end, it's just a show; to each their own. Still gonna watch S3 for sure.

  66. > A lot of the problem with this subreddit (and most fanbases in general) lies in the fact that too many people try to reframe their own personal opinions and tastes as some "greater truth". There is a big difference between "I am not digging the convoluted storytelling" and "this is bad storytelling."

  67. Non-linear story made perfect sense in season 1, but to do the same in season 2 for no reason was sloppy and gratuitous. I would say this is indeed bad story telling.

  68. So people are allowed to pick and choose what they like and judge it accordingly. Yet can’t dislike it and judge it accordingly?

  69. This season felt like the latest walking dead seasons when it came to comBat. The security forces would just file down hallways getting mowed down over and over. I’m sure a highly trained armed force would act a bit more tactical

  70. its an entertainment product, if it doesn't entertain its fans then it could be a bad product. i wouldn't say this season was bad, just not great. the gulf isn't as wide as the one between the true detective season though.

  71. I was ready to put Westworld among the pantheon of HBO greats at the end of last season. But because of the nonsensical decision making and total lack of character development we saw in season 2 I would be extremely reluctant to do so now. It was a tremendously weak season.

  72. I felt like I understood basically everything going on this season, probably only because I watch it with a group and we comb over it and figure it out.

  73. Nah there were serious problems in how they laid out season 2 that prevented many people from enjoying it as much as they could. There is such a thing as failures of writing.

  74. When you are hooked with the promise of sophisticated and intriguing and left with derivative and banal, disappointment ensues. Cognitive dissonance against preferred outcomes need not be relevant.

  75. It's reddit. You're dealing with college aged white kids who typically have money who think they're the young Orson Welles. I enjoyed the show and am glad you did also. Let people pile and whine and see how many networks give them millions of dollars to tell their nonexistent story.

  76. You are literally the typical entitled viewer. You all act as if it's all too much for our little brains because of the deep and complex nature of it all. Lmfao! This show was literally made for people like you to sniff their own ass. It's not going over anyone's head. It's just stupid. Flat out. Lol

  77. No one said anything about the show going over anyone’s head. Just that different people like different things. Pretty sure an entitled viewer would be the person (like apparently you) who doesn’t like a show and expects the show to be different. I’ve run into plenty of shows I’ve decided aren’t for me. I move along. The fact that YOU guys don’t? THAT’s entitled.

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